Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by CyberDragon »

I also think some psychic types that are really specialized can't. Like I think Mr. Mime is pretty restricted to generating psychic barriers and objects.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

A lot of mind reading can be oppressive. It removes a lot of player control of narrative to be surrounded by mind readers. (Yes, I personally have very mild issues with Hagane's mind reading, while not entirely against it, but that's a separate conversation.)

It would also make it a really stupid move to not have a psychic-type around to read minds, in-universe, if 80% of them are telepathic. Effective villains work by keeping secrets, so either you keep a psychic-type around to find the not-a-dark-type mastermind, or you're just kinda generally bad at your job.

Kind of a bad way to set the world up, and part of why I was against it early on. Either psychic types are really rare, or dark types almost exclusively make up the underworld of society.

I was the only one who said anything though, so I didn't think to push it.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Gameb18oy »

Leafolawl wrote:A lot of mind reading can be oppressive. It removes a lot of player control of narrative to be surrounded by mind readers. (Yes, I personally have very mild issues with Hagane's mind reading, while not entirely against it, but that's a separate conversation.)

It would also make it a really stupid move to not have a psychic-type around to read minds, in-universe, if 80% of them are telepathic. Effective villains work by keeping secrets, so either you keep a psychic-type around to find the not-a-dark-type mastermind, or you're just kinda generally bad at your job.

Kind of a bad way to set the world up, and part of why I was against it early on. Either psychic types are really rare, or dark types almost exclusively make up the underworld of society.

I was the only one who said anything though, so I didn't think to push it.
You make some good points, and considering I always find your contributions interesting, I'd actually like to know if you have any ideas that would allow us the option to lessen its usefulness as personally I'd quite enjoy not having to make other players act like they don't have any way of guessing what the guild leaders are talking about due to in-universe it all being silent. Maybe like overuse of it leads to a lot of issues, mild overuse can lead to frequent migranes and muscle spasms and major overuse could actually put a user into a coma. Psychic types that are specialized for it have a mild larger tolerance for it, but they still have to hold back around most people as it would still be the same limit for other people they wish to talk to
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Legotron123 »

What if it’s a learned skill, one that’s hard to master? That way every random psychic type you encounter on the road isn’t reading your thoughts, but it still makes sense for the Alakazam to do it.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

I actually have a thing from an old roleplay that I can suggest, funnily enough, as well as some new thoughts that occurred while writing them down. The existing suggestions are good though.

To engage with telepathy is a feat because it requires mastering a few simple concepts.
_____

One: Metering it out. It's easy to take too many thoughts when read someone, which can be overwhelming, especially when you're new to the practice. This leads to overstimulation of the mind, which can cause migraines, lack of focus, and confusion.
_____

Two: Separating them, from you. The idea in this is that to influence someone with nothing more than a thought, you'd have to be part of them, however briefly, and however shallowly... which is dangerous on its own.

It gets easier the more you embrace them, but it can lead to a few problems, the immediate one being that someone experienced could backpack of it and read their mind. The more subtle one is what you take back with you and what gets left behind. The "imprint" more or less.

There's a more intricate description, but that would be an absolute wall.


There's also that I don't think dark-types should be outright immune, but that's not the discussion.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by CyberDragon »

Honestly I figured that Alakazam was able to do it because that evolutionary line is pretty much the generic psychic type. Many other psychic types have a very clear specialty, like Drowsee and Hypno are both specialized with hypnosis and dreams, Mr. Mime is specialized with barriers, etc. Abra, Kadabra, and Alakazam, while visually inspired by telekinesis, are a lot more generally focused, with Abra even explicitly having a form of telepathy in the form of a telepathic danger sense, and Kadabra being able to learn Future Sight.

Alakazam probably doesn't pay attention to most of the thoughts he might hear in the background, filtering it out as white noise. However, Trent was thinking his thoughts rather loudly.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

Alakazam are even shown to have the ability to connect telepathically, if anyone remembers Lavender Town in the anime. The connection between Alakazam and the gym leader put Alakazam into a laughing fit for events it wasn't even watching.

The difference there though is that it was a persistent telepathic connection.


My point is more on the implications of having hundreds of telepathic individuals, and how it's not conducive to a stable narrative.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Buster »

Alternately it could mean most antagonists are well intentioned extremists, morrally gray ideological or sociological zelots, and delusional individuals. As they would be threats without needing detectable malicious intents, rendering the psychic safety net far less effective. Remember, the most dangerous villans see themselves as the hero of their cause.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

Every society has its underbelly though. This "net" would make the only effective ones at that the dark-types. Paints a nasty picture of dark-types if they're the only ones that can end up as big name criminals. Under this kind of structure, Baja and T are both immediately suspect, just because of their typing. This treatment can extend to those who avoid psychic-types.

And that's just one problem, if you want to go conspiracy theory it gets much wilder.

Psychics silently govern because with the ability to read minds means they can communally say whatever they want about a person they disagree with and rip away their support.


I'm not against the existence of telepathic psychic-types. I'm against telepathic psychic-types being the norm, even among named N.P.C.s. We're in two groups and already at three telepathic individuals.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by CyberDragon »

Well, the Dark Type is referred to as the "Evil" type in japan...

I think we've established that it isn't really the norm. Again, the only reason Hagane can do this is because of his aura reading mastery (with a little help from his medicham ancestry). Atum can do this to a lesser degree because he's got the munna line ancestry (if memory serves) which has dream reading abilities. And at that point I think the only one he's been able to telepathically communicate with is Hagane. Alakazam is a high level, fully evolved, and fully trained generalized psychic type, and so it isn't a stretch to say he learned how to use telepathy. Others that can communicate telepathically would include psychic legendaries like Mewtwo, those that explicitly have the "Mind Reader" move (learnable only by 10 species naturally), and those with the telepathy ability (an ability that is almost exclusively a hidden ability except for, like, three pokemon).
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Champion Wallace »

Leafolawl wrote:Every society has its underbelly though. This "net" would make the only effective ones at that the dark-types. Paints a nasty picture of dark-types if they're the only ones that can end up as big name criminals. Under this kind of structure, Baja and T are both immediately suspect, just because of their typing. This treatment can extend to those who avoid psychic-types.
To be fair to the stereotype, about half of all named Dark types are criminals and Boss's gang is majority Dark Type. As for Telepaths and society, there is a completely opposite interpretation from the Star Trek: Voyager episode Counterpoint where telepaths are shunned from society because they aren't believed to have the concept of trust.
Inspector Cashyk wrote:Trust has to be earned. It's gradual. And yet it's the foundation of every relationship, professional and personal. It's also a concept alien to the telepathic races. Why take someone at their word when you can simply read their mind?
CyberDragon wrote:Atum can do this to a lesser degree because he's got the munna line ancestry (if memory serves) which has dream reading abilities.
The Munna line's gimmick is dream eating, not dream reading, though they can have Telepathy as a hidden ability.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Buster »

yeah, Boss's gang having Ghost & Dark heavy ranks does actually look like it's built specifically to curb stomp psychics doesn't it?
That was entirely by accident.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

"Evil" type, and then they have Absol, the omen Pokemon that actively tries to minimize harm of natural disasters. I think we can chalk that up to language.


I'm okay with the three examples we have of telepathic ability.

Synchronize actually makes a lot of sense for Atum being able to take someone reading him and turn it back on who's doing it. It makes the most sense as a psychic effect where an Umbreon simply forces an effect to be "shared" as a physically vivid hallucination. (An empathic psychic ability.)

Alakazam I vouched for, just the concerns of what weaker psychic-types that aren't good at it might experience.

One of the movies features a telepathic Lucario. Both that Lucario and Hagane are exceptional examples of a Lucario, so Hagane being able to read those around him isn't a problem as an idea.


The problem is, we've met two psychic-types and we're technically 3/2 for telepathy. Not an inspiring ratio.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Legotron123 »

Lucario being able to read people’s thoughts is actually something from it’s Pokédex entries. It’s Pearl entry says “By catching the aura emanating from others, it can read their thoughts and movements.”
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

But it's not the ability to project thoughts, as the Lucario from the movie or Hagane can do. Telepathy as an ability is a writing fumble, because its implications and implementation aren't always fully considered. There's inherent trust issues, there's oversights in what they can see, there's flimsy reasons why it's not fully utilized...

We're front loaded on it. Sure, it's a cool concept, but I'm nervous about it because "rule of cool" doesn't always make an enjoyable roleplay experience.


I suppose my stance here boils down to "please be careful, because reading minds typically isn't fun to deal with." Transparency with the G.M.s is fine. Matter of fact, since Einar was focused on his thoughts for a second as well, here's what was running through his mind in my last post.
Einar's 'wait a minute' thoughts wrote:Hagane was training last night, which caused a ruckus because it went bad.

This Charizard is particularly afraid of Hagane, in spite of his clear type advantage. Riling him to get Hagane's attention confirms it is indeed Hagane he's scared of. Hagane is strong, but fighting types are known for discipline, and by extension self restraint.

The whole team worked a job in the time they were here, which is impossible unless the job is here. I can smell they haven't left since arriving, and the only thing of note was Hagane's training last night. They had to have been training partners or something.

But why would a basic sense of self-preservation be a trait necessary for helping a Lucario—who's so refined he has the ability to project his thoughts with his Aura—train? Unless he's doing something that removes that refinement and reason.

But the only thing that does that is mega-evolution... and they have the reputation to get one...
Since it needs to be clarified, else I'm not being 100% faithful to the narration.
Last edited by Leafolawl on Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Champion Wallace »

Leafolawl wrote:"Evil" type, and then they have Absol, the omen Pokemon that actively tries to minimize harm of natural disasters. I think we can chalk that up to language.
Absol tries to help people, but humans still distrust this Dark type, classifying it as the Disaster Pokémon and thinking it brings the disasters. I was going to provide a better example of a non-evil Dark type, but even mundane are seen as evil. Shiftry is "A POKéMON that was feared as a forest guardian." (Fire Red/Leaf Green), Sharpedo "...is known as the bully of the sea." (Sun), "If a traveler is going through a desert in the thick of night, Cacturne will follow in a ragtag group. The Pokémon are biding their time, waiting for the traveler to tire and become incapable of moving." (Alpha Sapphire), Crawdaunt "...is a ruffian..." (X), "Bisharp doesn’t even change its expression when it deals the finishing blow to an opponent." (Ultra Moon), and Malamar "...wields the most compelling hypnotic powers of any Pokémon, and it forces others to do whatever it wants." (X). Even with Umbreon "When this Pokémon becomes angry, its pores secrete a poisonous sweat, which it sprays at its opponent’s eyes." (Sun) and "When darkness falls, the rings on its body begin to glow, striking fear in the hearts of anyone nearby." (Fire Red). The Best Dark type I found without anything negative about it was Skuntank, of all things. Granted, Individuals don't have to follow their nature so even if a species as a whole is evil, not every Pokémon of that species will be.
Leafolawl wrote:One of the movies features a telepathic Lucario. Both that Lucario and Hagane are exceptional examples of a Lucario, so Hagane being able to read those around him isn't a problem as an idea.
One of the movies features a Zorua that could speak telepathically. Should that line be on the list of telepaths?
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Legotron123 »

Don’t worry Leaf, we only have one (as far as I can remember) mind reader planned for the future, and they shouldn’t be appearing be anytime soon.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

Sorry, I had some flashbacks to some heavily egregious moments of out of character information bleeding into in character. It put me in a pretty defensive state of mind. There's a violation of trust to have it happen, especially when it's done willfully.

I really am fine with the three examples of telepathy we have as of now, if you can call Atum's "You read me, I read you" form of it anything more than just technicality. Being around mind readers (compulsive ones especially) just comes with the expectation of explicitly outlining the thoughts of a character. This is by no means inherently bad, only that I find it uncomfortable to share that much detail publicly.

I was actually uncomfortable with simply sharing Einar's backstory publicly, but so far everyone's been really good about not breaking that leap of faith.


The tone of my posts became a little bit snappy, especially where I outlined Einar's line of thought to get to his conclusion. After rest and time to reflect, I realize—while I might not have gone completely out of line—I should have been able to better compose myself instead of becoming mildly passive aggressive. Sorry again, everyone.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Gameb18oy »

Leafolawl wrote:Sorry, I had some flashbacks to some heavily egregious moments of out of character information bleeding into in character. It put me in a pretty defensive state of mind. There's a violation of trust to have it happen, especially when it's done willfully.

I really am fine with the three examples of telepathy we have as of now, if you can call Atum's "You read me, I read you" form of it anything more than just technicality. Being around mind readers (compulsive ones especially) just comes with the expectation of explicitly outlining the thoughts of a character. This is by no means inherently bad, only that I find it uncomfortable to share that much detail publicly.

I was actually uncomfortable with simply sharing Einar's backstory publicly, but so far everyone's been really good about not breaking that leap of faith.


The tone of my posts became a little bit snappy, especially where I outlined Einar's line of thought to get to his conclusion. After rest and time to reflect, I realize—while I might not have gone completely out of line—I should have been able to better compose myself instead of becoming mildly passive aggressive. Sorry again, everyone.
Mind reading someone who doesn't wish to be read kinda sounds like the act of a villain in my mind, I'd personally want our main characters to stick away from it
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by CyberDragon »

Do I need to edit my last post?
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Gameb18oy »

You mean the bit with Kimera mentioning Hagane could just focus in on what people are saying? Yeah that bit probably be good to edit
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by CyberDragon »

I was more referring to the Alakazam, but whatever.

EDIT: Except for Kimera didn't say anything about Hagane reading his mind. He just knew Hagane would be able to pick up on his fear. That's not really mind reading.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

It's a survival reflex for an Abra. I do think, given that, it's not too extreme to say Alakazams might be good at tuning it out, but it's like sitting in a cafeteria alone. You're aware people are talking, and once in awhile you just pick up on something notable from a nearby table. Maybe they were just loud so it came in clear, or maybe there was something that caught your interest.

Whether or not you act on it, you overheard something. For Trent, it's a matter of narrative that Wallace wants someone to notice, even if Trent doesn't. This is contrast to me, where it's just repeating things Mr. Cayce already knows. The only thing to glean from Einar's thoughts is that he is apparently familiar with mega-evolution's effects, and that he was definitely the one out after curfew. Only one of those is new to him and worth noting.


Either way, Mr. Cayce isn't staying long enough for it to be a problem. He's there for breakfast and then he's gone.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Gameb18oy »

Since I'm not seeing a lot of responses in the rp, felt it might be good to make sure you guys aren't having issues with how things are progressing. Be kinda sad if so as I feel like were getting close to where the plot proper can start
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Buster »

just waiting for lego.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Legotron123 »

Haven’t had a lot of time to work on a post. I’ll get one up today or tomorrow.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Buster »

so is it bad that your user name makes me think of Megatron only made out of legos?
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Legotron123 »

No, but this is cooler.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

Don't try to force it is all I can ask. It tends to either not work or make it less fun.

Those are cool Lego things though.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by CyberDragon »

I thought we agreed that there won't be more telepaths for a while, and the current ones are special cases? And that the two we've got make enough sense? And that one of those two is leaving the RP for the foreseeable future soon? And that they don't read every mind because it's mostly background noise?

Do I have to change my post or not? What will get things moving again? I don't like the entire RP grinding to a hault because we can't decide if I screwed up or not. Somebody please move or tell me if I need to fix my post first.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

I meant his post. He shouldn't try to force himself to write.

I'm in the same boat as Buster in waiting on Lego, as Einar is ostensibly talking to Lance.
Last edited by Leafolawl on Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by CyberDragon »

*facepalm*

Sorry. 9 hour drive is going to my head.

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Leafolawl
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

I understand that. Been on car rides three days long and they tend to make one... uncomfortable.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Buster »

Legotron123 wrote:No, but this is cooler.
[IMG]
a household object that comes with minions?
i shall dub thee Brick-wave.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Buster »

Wait, i thought hagane wore himself out smashing a certain living glitch into a milion pieces, and never actually reached blane and the mercs... was there a 2nd attempt?
Most important thing I've learned from D&D?
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Every time a DMPC or NPC fixes something a payer couldn't i'm diminishing and undermining that player's contribution.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by CyberDragon »

What Hagane said was a lie. He didn't want Hagone mentioned when his son was in earshot, and didn't want Einar starting a panic. So he cut Einar off and gave a believable story in order to hopefully put an end to things.

Kind of morally grey, but one problem at a time. He may discuss things privately with Einar later.
"It's not my job to seek the truth.
It's not my job to pick a side.
It's not my job to judge your sins.
It's my job to save your life."
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Gameb18oy »

Hey Cyber, doubt any of our players will have access to them early on, but felt it be good to touch on this publically? You think all megas have an effect like that or is Hagone a special case? Also, think I remember Super had a semi mega thing going on for pokemon that don't have them, so you think we should discuss that a little as well?
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Leafolawl »

As far as the fear though, Blaine was just the guy who was stupid enough to ignore the rules and step up to Hagane's door. A heavy, reinforced door that was broken from its reinforced frame and dented. From his perspective, Hagane broke the door down, and then went silent.

This, during what could be called a murderous rampage. And he was the 'first sacrifice on the alter', as my brain isn't putting forth any better phrases to describe it.


On the new topic, that's the Awakening mechanic. Only ever found like five of those things, and I tend to do floor clearing when I'm not fighting uphill.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by Buster »

*hands blaine a red uniform*
Most important thing I've learned from D&D?
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Every time a DMPC or NPC fixes something a payer couldn't i'm diminishing and undermining that player's contribution.
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Re: Non-HPU: Pokémon: Explorers of the Veil

Post by CyberDragon »

Gameb18oy wrote:Hey Cyber, doubt any of our players will have access to them early on, but felt it be good to touch on this publically? You think all megas have an effect like that or is Hagone a special case? Also, think I remember Super had a semi mega thing going on for pokemon that don't have them, so you think we should discuss that a little as well?
I don't really know about how Pokemon Mystery Dungeon does Mega Evolution. TBH, the "Mystery Dungeon" (randomly generated dungeons that change every time you enter them) part of the games always ended up boring me once the main story was over, and I'd stop playing. When you randomly generate everything in order for things to be different every time, then everything ends up looking the same. The quests are all the same, the dungeons are all the same, everything is just monotonous climbing. As such, I never ended up getting to the Mega Evolution part of that game, or even really the "Awakening" part.

I do know that Mega Lucario is specifically mentioned to go berserk, and is shown to do so in the anime. This is due to Mega Lucario becoming entirely focused on fighting instinct, with anything that may be a restraint (such as honor, morality, mercy, actual restraint) is removed or suppressed by that instinct. Some Mega forms have similar things, while others don't. For example, Mega Gyarados has a powerful destructive instinct, but... well, so does regular Gyarados. Mega Alakazam, however, doesn't seem to have any mention of becoming more violent. Instead, it becomes much, much smarter.

So I think the effect the mega form has on pokemon depends on the species. I don't know what the deal with Awakening is.

As far as Blaine, he wasn't actually being stupid. One of the locks on Hagone's door came undone, and he tried fixing it. He missed Mr. Mime's warnings that Hagone would be able to sense him through the door if he got too close because he was busy arranging things so he could get a slumber wand from the combee. Mr. Mime doesn't talk (because mime reference) and so Blaine didn't realize he was saying anything.

Granted, Blaine is probably the least intelligent and least experienced member of the mercenary group, but he's also the youngest.
"It's not my job to seek the truth.
It's not my job to pick a side.
It's not my job to judge your sins.
It's my job to save your life."
-Champion Motto

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