Housepets!

Taking philosophy classes would have been so much more fun if they had involved space whales.

Knew it....knew it. So what hes sayin is what the nerds have done is fine and apparently has no problem putting King in his place by throwing his foibles right back at him. Figures. No one at that status could ever really care.

King, space-whale god has an incredibly valid point. We want absolute justice a lot of the time, when we ourselves carry our own guilt.

So was anyone else reminded of the scene in Prince of Egypt when Moses was speaking with God in the burning bush at the second panel?

Morality can be such a drag sometimes. I can't even be a bad guy in video games because I don't want to hurt the npc's feelings.

Xane wrote:I say it's still not the same thing. Mortals don't have infinite power to abuse others with, to override their willpower (willing or not) or forcibly transform people.

I agree, them cosmic nerds in a way are corrupt (well not all of them but Pete is for sure) by their power. You'd think there'd be more effort in controlling it.
As once said, "With great power comes great corruption".

Iceheart wrote:Morality can be such a drag sometimes. I can't even be a bad guy in video games because I don't want to hurt the npc's feelings.

I feel ya. I can't even hurt the villagers in mine craft. After all, what did they ever do to me?

Hmm, He does have a good point. But I don't think what King has done is worse than Pete.
Charges for Pete: 1. Kidnapping
2. Breaking and entering
3. Tampering with the fate of a mortal.
I'm gonna stop there cause my hands are starting to get sore.

Iceheart wrote:Morality can be such a drag sometimes. I can't even be a bad guy in video games because I don't want to hurt the npc's feelings.

I don't care so much for npcs, given what happens when I'm the "good guy" in a video game, but I feel similarly about videogames where the player is the antagonist/anti-hero. They just don't appeal that much to me.

ConvoyWolf wrote:Knew it....knew it. So what hes sayin is what the nerds have done is fine and apparently has no problem putting King in his place by throwing his foibles right back at him. Figures. No one at that status could ever really care.

I think he cares but understands better than anyone that there has to be a balance.

Put it another way, without evil there could be no good.

There's a little Lex Luthor in all of us;
the 'reward without responsibility' thing.
It's not revealed in his usual behaviour
but here we see it serves our King.
Remembering only what has been taken
he forgets the things that he once took.
What he realizes now, after his anger,
is he needs to take this by the book.
When pleading his case he's learnt
not to yell his anger at Bahamut,
who may decide to treat him as he is -
not a hero, not a human, just a mutt.
Interesting thing though, regarding his soul.
Bahamut referred to him as King, not Joel...

So, if they (Dragon, Pete, etc) are not the bad guys, who are ? ... Maybe there are no "bad" guys

Xane wrote:I say it's still not the same thing. Mortals don't have infinite power to abuse others with, to override their willpower (willing or not) or forcibly transform people.

A lot of it is this but another part of it, and my biggest hang up on it, is what their doing is really selfish and they way they are doing it is pointless and rather counterintuitive. Again why not just pick a blank universe and beat each other up? That is exactly what they are doing, except now it involves messing with people and avatars. If its about being able to plan, well, then why is this even still going then? Pete lost that contest a long time ago, Dragon has been shown to out think him at every corner, and some of his plans are just really, really, really stupid. (STEALING FROM HEAVEN ITSELF????? What kind of plan was that? Heck it barely was one.)

Pete comes across, to me anyway, as someone who barely seems to understand the game he is even playing right now. He has no backup (according to Tarot) and he let his one very likely backup (King) just go away. Even if that was what this was about, which still would change nothing and just make the reason for this ending fight even more confusing really, Pete's lost on that account quite a few times over. I wouldn't want to follow him or any plan he came up with.

I don't think that they are bad guys or evil or anything like that I just see two selfish idiots fighting each other for no real reason while using people who shouldn't be involved in the first place.

Man, King is straight up DONE with this.

Iceheart wrote:Morality can be such a drag sometimes. I can't even be a bad guy in video games because I don't want to hurt the npc's feelings.

Even if you're a good guy, you're still hurting someones feelings. The enemies just have a differing opinion on whats right, therefore they defend it because they don't understand why you don't agree with them. You are the bad guys to them and they are the bad guys to you. Everything is just an opinion set by an influential person who convinced people to live a certain way based on what they thought should happen. It's all just in the eye of the beholder.

...

Wait, what???

*sigh* I suppose theres a point being made....i dunno. I just feel bad for King....really bad. I mean for once in his lefe he found people like Bailey who have shown him true happiness after a past of darness and despair. And once he takes it further by marrying Bailey, someone comes along and takes all of it away from him. So now he seemily gets an oppurtunity to get her back somehow and He just gets more crap thrown at him, like hes being punished even more for his past occurences as a human and for his frustration in the current situation.. I swear its like Heaven is some kind of celestial beaurocracy and Kings going through the heaven version of filling out papers.

*breathes* Im sorry....i just know id me in a worse place if i was in King's position...

Gbr23 wrote:So, if they (Dragon, Pete, etc) are not the bad guys, who are ? ... Maybe there are no "bad" guys

As it was told to Wreck it Ralph "Just because you are bad guy... does not mean you are bad guy."

[quote="Welsh Halfwit
Interesting thing though, regarding his soul.
Bahamut referred to him as King, not Joel...[/quote]
I noticed that, too. Maybe Bahamut is referring to him as his current form, maybe he knows that King holds to that particular identity instead of Joel, or maybe a different reason? I myself refer to him as whatever form he is, Joel as a human, King as a dog, but I will always remember that those two identities are of the same individual, and that he is human, with human worries and such. That's why he is so much different than any of the pets, who seem to just go wherever life takes them.

So what, Baha wants King to repent for his own sins before hell help? Will that be enough? Or will there be more hoops for him to jump through.

Gbr23 wrote:So, if they (Dragon, Pete, etc) are not the bad guys, who are ? ... Maybe there are no "bad" guys

You mean like how 'The Lorax' book had no real bad guy? Just a cautionary tale about going too far?

ConvoyWolf wrote:apparently has no problem putting King in his place by throwing his foibles right back at him.

Let's not trivialize King's wrong-doings for the sake of giving him the moral high ground.

Miles the Wolf wrote:Charges for Pete:
2. Breaking and entering
3. Tampering with the fate of a mortal.

Both of which he was already punished for

ConvoyWolf wrote:i dunno. I just feel bad for King....really bad.

Yeah, he's been through a lot of carp. But he's learning, right? (I hope he's learning) and definitely growing stronger through all this.

ConvoyWolf wrote:So what, Baha wants King to repent for his own sins before hell help? Will that be enough? Or will there be more hoops for him to jump through.

I suppose it depends. It doesn't appear he's going to "help him" in the way of punishing the CNs, because that's not what it's about. But there may be a request of King's that he is willing to grant. We'll see, I suppose.

Gbr23 wrote:So, if they (Dragon, Pete, etc) are not the bad guys, who are ? ... Maybe there are no "bad" guys

I don't think there's a good or a bad. Just that everyone has their wants and that some of those people don't get what they want. Sure most of what Pete is doing has a malicious intent, but he's not TRYING to destroy King and Bailey's relationship. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not taking Pete's side on this, but you have to look at ALL of the facts before you judge someone.
But I really hope King sets things straight.

Obbl wrote:

ConvoyWolf wrote:apparently has no problem putting King in his place by throwing his foibles right back at him.

Let's not trivialize King's wrong-doings for the sake of giving him the moral high ground.

ConvoyWolf wrote:i dunno. I just feel bad for King....really bad.

Yeah, he's been through a lot of carp. But he's learning, right? (I hope he's learning) and definitely growing stronger through all this.

I know i know.....Believe me im glad hes gotten this far. I know i wouldnt have. If i was him id be curld in a ball bawling my eyes out at Cerbs feet still on earth. Of course i want him to learn and grow stronger and stuff. I just dont want it to be for nothing.....

Miles the Wolf wrote:Charges for Pete:
2. Breaking and entering
3. Tampering with the fate of a mortal.

Both of which he was already punished for
Well, I know.. But it is still on the list of bad stuff that he did.

King wrote:This morality crap

King has quite the potty-mouth

Obbl wrote:

King wrote:This morality crap

King has quite the potty-mouth

Least it aint that other word for excrement. Heh

Heck I just looked back at the comic for the reason for the duel even existing in the first place, Its about leadership, however its not about the planing side of leadership is about the "Goals" of the other game. (whatever they are) So, no, I was wrong there isn't even a slightly decent reason for this game to exist. It really is two selfish idiots having a fist fight over basically D&D, for no clear reason, so I again go back to my point of; Why not just pick a blank universe a beat the crud out of each other there? It amounts to exactly the same thing anyway.

IceKitsune wrote:Heck I just looked back at the comic for the reason for the duel even existing in the first place, Its about leadership, however its not about the planing side of leadership is about the "Goals" of the other game. (whatever they are) So, no, I was wrong there isn't even a slightly decent reason for this game to exist. It really is two selfish idiots having a fist fight over basically D&D, for no clear reason, so I again go back to my point of; Why not just pick a blank universe a beat the crud out of each other there? It amounts to exactly the same thing anyway.

I like your thinking my friend.

Obbl wrote:

King wrote:This morality crap

King has quite the potty-mouth

Pun intended.

IceKitsune wrote:Why not just pick a blank universe a beat the crud out of each other there? It amounts to exactly the same thing anyway.

I assume for the same reasons you wouldn't normally challege someone to a fistfight when you could challenge them to a game you are familiar with.

Obbl wrote:

IceKitsune wrote:Why not just pick a blank universe a beat the crud out of each other there? It amounts to exactly the same thing anyway.

I assume for the same reasons you wouldn't normally challege someone to a fistfight when you could challenge them to a game you are familiar with.

The issue I have with that is, the game and beating each other up are the same thing. Except in the interim you screw with mortals for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

rather than upset, I feel...curious, now. All of a sudden, it's like finding yourself in front of a board filled with expalantions and not one fitting the situation, trying to find a sense at all.
I knew that Joel was one NOT NICE guy. The fact that he hadn't done a thing to help Fox while his PETA accomplice was literally suffocating him to death speaks volumes. And we don't know shick about what he may (skip it, HAS) done out of his rage against animal world, child trauma or not.
But again, when Pete introduced himself to Joel and transformed him, it was to stop a cycle of pain and violence. If he was in the least sincere, then the gryphon did one heck of a GOOD job. King's life is not just being about a dog, he REALLY made the best of it, he MARRIED a dog, he discovered friendship and a good measure of redemption. He never stopped CARING for Sasha, for at heart he still detests the abuses inflicted to his own pets and himself. And this is why, supposedly, Bahamut told him that King wasn't in trouble. Of course, he's still got more to atone for, but heck, Pete put him in the good direction and King is walking all the way.
But if, in the eyes of the celestial courtroom, the 'cosmic punks' are allowed to do what they are doing in the name of karma -or so it appears- WHY BAILEY?!? Dang it to the sewers, SHE'S THE INNOCENT VICTIM HERE! Pete could've had an avatar out of a very volunteering King if only had the gryphon put things as bahamut is doing now! It's CRUEL that Bailey had to be forced into this ridicolous game thing
This is about King, so deal with him, instead of once again ruining the happiness he has built and fueling even more all the reasons for his hatred!

I didn't realize King had a last name as King. That's... kind of amazing.

ConvoyWolf wrote:Knew it....knew it. So what hes sayin is what the nerds have done is fine and apparently has no problem putting King in his place by throwing his foibles right back at him. Figures. No one at that status could ever really care.

The reasons of the poor are like wooden bells: They make no noise.

Welsh Halfwit wrote:I think he cares but understands better than anyone that there has to be a balance.

Put it another way, without evil there could be no good.

The "balance" speech never made an iota of sense, truth be told.
A good balance would be to give each their due punishment, not letting everyone go because everyone is flawed.

Not to be mean and critical, but shouldn't "when what you've allowed a gang" be either "when what you've allowed is a gang" or "when you've allowed a gang"? The way it's written is slightly confusing.

I don't know for sure how it is in other countries, but I think it's interesting how most Americans (myself partially included) assume that the rights given in America are also given everywhere else, including the celestial realm. The sometimes harsh reality is that many "rights" (which really should be called privileges, all things considered) that Americans like myself have are only merely a fool's dream in many other countries. ...I just realized I might be getting political in my generalizations, so I'll try to bring it back on track.
I'm assuming that Babylon Gardens is in America. I think that's a safe assumption. I also think it's a safe assumption to say that King is an American citizen. (Even if his official citizenship is through his Joel R. character) So as a normal American he thinks his rights follow him wherever he goes. But, as we've seen, the moral standard in the HP universe (celestial level) is much different than the moral standard in the real world. In the HP universe (celestial level) it's considered okay for imperfect celestial beings to use "low order beings" to accomplish unjustified goals. In real life we (or at least I) realize that heaven is perfect, that God doesn't use people unjustly, and even Satan himself has to get permission to do anything to anyone.
*climbs off soap box*
I think that's why so many people don't like the actions of the celestial beings in the HP universe. We all have our ideas of what 'higher level' beings should be like, and most, if not all of us don't like the idea that they could both be flawed and in control.

Ryusuta wrote:I didn't realize King had a last name as King. That's... kind of amazing.

More of a ferret, I believe... He's a Milton.

I notice some of you people say that while King has done wrong things in his past, they don't came anywhere near to what Pete has done. You don't seem to grasp the fact that one sin is all that matters. It doesn't matter how big or how many, one sin is the qualifier.

TheOne wrote:I think that's why so many people don't like the actions of the celestial beings in the HP universe. We all have our ideas of what 'higher level' beings should be like, and most, if not all of us don't like the idea that they could both be flawed and in control.

And this is why I don't like the Greek pantheon!

SuperStar wrote:I notice some of you people say that while King has done wrong things in his past, they don't came anywhere near to what Pete has done. You don't seem to grasp the fact that one sin is all that matters. It doesn't matter how big or how many, one sin is the qualifier.

To keep everything contestualized to the HPverse before religion and politics ruin the thread: In the Housepets! universe, heaven exists, period. It's not a philosophical speculation, it's not the reflection of the 'classic' biblical dogma.
And in this context, heaven is a more complicated thing than we're used to think. It's not based on moral absolutes, and redemption overcomes that 'one sin' anyone, me included, could mention.
King is clearly being offered the chance to win his place in heaven, despite his many sins. THAT is in his rights. And of course, right now King can't see why he should be lashed again and again, in contradiction to the fact that he's trying to atone for whatever he did. If he didn't have a chance, he wouldn't even be there talking to the higher judge in first place.
Now, again, the only X in this very complicated equation of good/evil balance is Bailey: as it is, there is no reason why should she be fight in his place while everything has led so far to King being the excellent candidate to the arena and to another step toward redemption.

Well, if King had just stepped up and signed the contract, Bailey wouldn't have done it herself... Something else to think about.

Xane wrote:it's only the mods who seem to have inside information that he used to be evil incarnate.

No one's saying he's evil incarnate (and most of us don't have any further knowledge than you guys). But based on what Bahamut is saying here, King has "done evil", "hurt people", and "caused irreverable damage". So, while we don't know the exact details, he's certainly not been a saint

VolkOseba wrote:Taking philosophy classes would have been so much more fun if they had involved space whales.

That's probably the easiest way to get kids into philosophy!
And I wouldn't want to answer for all I have done either, mainly because of how long it would take for them to name every action.

I wouldn't go nearly so far as saying Joel is "evil incarnate." We do know Joel has a criminal history, since he says he can't go back to prison. Prison is usually the preserve of the career criminal or one with a sentence in excess of one year, with lesser or first offenses typically resulting in a fine or incarceration in a jail.

And if it seems that the mods have been saying it moreso than others, it has mostly been to conuterbalance the number of people who seem to want to paint King in as good a light as they can in order to make the Cosmic Nerds look terrible by comparison.

Xane wrote:terrible horrible no good very bad person

He should move to Australia with Alexander