Sleet wrote:If they want to hunt it for fun, then fine ... Hunting for sport is wrong
How is hunting to sport different to hunting for fun?
Here's my view on fur, and note everything is in the context of Australia. I know the rules and regulations differ to those of the US and the UK and I wouldn't be surprised if what is considered common or acceptable among farmers differs too.
Fur in itself is fine. I can't possibly have a moral misgiving on the material itself. Fur didn't do anything wrong, guys. It's like saying uranium is evil. But moving on to a real point, when we're wearing anything woolen, we're wearing fur. Most people make an exception for that because they consider it humane or normal, even though there are many sheep that are grown entirely for their wool, then killed, then their body is thrown away (most wool sheep are not also used as meat animals after all). By all means, Sleet should be utterly repulsed. The difference here is that they are not skinned for it, and the skinning is what people have an issue with. 'Fur' is a misnomer, it's skin as a resource that is the issue. Am I wrong?
Now, I see physical cruelty to animals as being distinct to whatever motives people may have. That is to say, even if their meat isn't used, did they live a comfortable life as compared to the standards of their life in the wild? That's the question I feel should be asked. Nobody's going to be happy if an animal's life is cut short as compared to what its life would be in the wild simply for its fur. That's below their normal standards. It's the same reason people are disgusted at things like battered chicken, but it comes from different methods. So in the end, if farming is such that the conditions are desirable for the animal compared to what they would experience in nature, even if they are only farmed for their fur, I cannot in good faith say that it is morally abhorrent.
But here's something I do have to pick with fur: The only distinction fur has as a material to any other clothing material is its origin. You can say as much as you like that it's not the same at all, but that should go without saying with it being a different material and all. Obviously cotton and polyester are not on the same level as each other and obviously fur is not on the same level either. However, the fact we have cotton and we have polyester and we have whatever else makes up for it. So then, all you can really say is that they just doesn't feel the same, but people don't exactly wear fur jackets for how they feel. The same visual effect can be achieved by using any number of fake furs. We don't need animals for their fur anymore, since we can get 'fur' however else we want.
Now i have no idea what you guys are talking about but it certainly doesn't seem to be fur anymore
Sleet wrote:If they want to hunt it for fun, then fine ... Hunting for sport is wrong
How is hunting to sport different to hunting for fun?
It's not. What I said was wrong is hunting for sport if no one eats the meat.
Ebly wrote:Most people make an exception for that because they consider it humane or normal, even though there are many sheep that are grown entirely for their wool, then killed, then their body is thrown away (most wool sheep are not also used as meat animals after all). By all means, Sleet should be utterly repulsed.
If the sheep really do not survive the shearing process, then yes, I am repulsed. All the same as with animals that are skinned and then otherwise wasted. In the case of traditional shearing where they're kept alive and safe so they can be sheared multiple times when the wool grows back, I see that as similar to milking. Nothing wrong with that.
That said, I don't have to worry about where my wool comes from because I hate wool anyway. Lucky me.
Last edited by Sleet on Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sleet wrote:If the sheep really do not survive the shearing process, then yes, I am repulsed. All the same as with animals that are skinned and then otherwise wasted. In the case of traditional shearing where they're kept alive and safe so they can be sheared multiple times when the wool grows back, I see that as similar to milking. Nothing wrong with that.
That said, I don't have to worry about where my wool comes from because I hate wool anyway. Lucky me.
It's the latter. I was pointing out that, well, overall wool sheep seem to fit your criteria for disgust since they do eventually die and are usually not used for meat – I was being pedantic moreso than picking apart your message. I'm sure you understand.
i don't like wool either, it's too itchy. *bleh-face*
Sleet wrote:Well all animals die. Pets also eventually die and we (hopefully) don't eat them. The difference is we didn't kill the sheep.
I dunno about you guys, but I still have the sneaking suspicion that we kill the animals eventually. Anyway, we do have mulesing which people seem to hate.
still, it's a bit stupid, since flystrike is a lot more painful for the sheep over time, as compared to the pain of the scarring which goes away after it heals over.
Sleet wrote:Well all animals die. Pets also eventually die and we (hopefully) don't eat them. The difference is we didn't kill the sheep.
I dunno about you guys, but I still have the sneaking suspicion that we kill the animals eventually. Anyway, we do have mulesing which people seem to hate.
still, it's a bit stupid, since flystrike is a lot more painful for the sheep over time, as compared to the pain of the scarring which goes away after it heals over.
If your talking about farm animals then you are right but the animals are killed so that they do not have to suffer old age or any other afflictions or diseases, its just more humane that way.
Sleet wrote:Well all animals die. Pets also eventually die and we (hopefully) don't eat them. The difference is we didn't kill the sheep.
I dunno about you guys, but I still have the sneaking suspicion that we kill the animals eventually. Anyway, we do have mulesing which people seem to hate.
still, it's a bit stupid, since flystrike is a lot more painful for the sheep over time, as compared to the pain of the scarring which goes away after it heals over.
If your talking about farm animals then you are right but the animals are killed so that they do not have to suffer old age or any other afflictions or diseases, its just more humane that way.
Yeah, I know. I'm arguing for farming here. I'm just not 100% sure because I think there are some here that let old age take them.
I'm all for farming, if there's any question there. At the very least the method of farming that involves raising plants and sometimes animals for their delicious bodies or reproductive products.
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Sleet wrote:I'm all for farming, if there's any question there. At the very least the method of farming that involves raising plants and sometimes animals for their delicious bodies or reproductive products.
Actually I was just going to calmly mention that I was referring to milk and eggs, but then the temptation to make the Scott Pilgrim quote overpowered me. I had just typed out the first three words of my favorite line of the whole movie. I wasn't going to stop there without typing the fourth! For the record, I typed out four asterisks there; that wasn't the forum's censor.
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Sleet wrote:Actually I was just going to calmly mention that I was referring to milk and eggs, but then the temptation to make the Scott Pilgrim quote overpowered me. For the record, I typed out four asterisks there; that wasn't the forum's censor.
Sleet wrote:Actually I was just going to calmly mention that I was referring to milk and eggs, but then the temptation to make the Scott Pilgrim quote overpowered me. For the record, I typed out four asterisks there; that wasn't the forum's censor.
Sure it was.
I was curious . . . turns out it really was four asterisks
(The rules seem to state that I can bump a thread, so here are my thoughts. :x)
As long as the animal in question is dispatched humanely, then I am fine. But even so, I try to find better alternatives for food. Sometimes I eat vegetarian food and sometimes I don't. What can I say? I love my pasta. As for clothing, I would much rather wear polyester and cotton (since cotton feels much better than wool).
So more on the topic, I don't like the act of skinning animals. Most of the time, the meat goes to waste, so it seems almost cruel to just be interested in the animal's fur. But like what someone commented on (forgot and too lazy to check), cows seem to be an exception; when they are killed for their beef, usually their skin is processed into leather. Though I don't care much for leather, I don't think it's a huge problem.
But we still need to treat animals with respect. After all, we have more power than them.
Sinder wrote:So then Max can't snort catnip off Grape's chest? :(
