2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

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Fish Preferred
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Fish Preferred »

!!QUOTE WALL INCOMING!!




zidane wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:33 am1)Sasha being abused by her alcoholic father which was solved offscreen and glanced over with a joke
So, what you're saying is you'd prefer to follow those characters through the legal minutia of an animal cruelty investigation that we already have the basic details on, rather than moving on to a new story arc?
2) Gale having to stitch herself due to a "betrayal" that was glanced over and solved with a idiotic joke
You seem to be confused. The betrayal Gale was referring to was Miles and Lucretia having pups, when he had previously convinced her the region could not support more. It wasn't glanced over in any sense; the issue was resolved when it became apparent that she could support a family by different means.
3)The whole situation between Max and Rufus
What about it?
4)That moment when Grape even cried as she was talking about a wolf who had to mutilate himself to be an actor because of the sheer prejudice animals face (it was in the arc Res was introduced)
Again, what about it? You aren't doing a very good job of getting your point across.
5)King being physicially abused to the point of tears by the other dogs during his watch arc and it was a "Joke" that forced Fido into helping him.
No, it wasn't. In any case, what would you suggest as an alternative?
My whole point was to show all flaws I've encountered in the comic and how to improve it, which would be to pick a tone and commit to it in a arc.
Great. You've put quite a bit into the former, now all you need to do is provide any even remotely helpful advice for the latter and you'll have something more constructive than a rant. What are you asking him to commit to? Full on Cerebus syndrome? Syndicated newspaper comic gags? Some kind of monotonous biographical format? Please explain.
I don't know if it was because Rick was scared of being "too dark" and thus backpedalled it, or because he wrote himself into a corner and wanted Gale and Miles to be friends, and so he had no idea how to do it, and, because of it, did it as a joke with a time skip.
In other words, you don't know his reason for making a plot decision, but you'd like to believe it's one of those two. Ok.
If he wants to make more serious story arcs, then he needs to learn to not add jokes in it because he does not know how to make them flow naturally.
Even if we pretended to agree on the matter, you've still provided no information as to how he is to accomplish that, which leads me to suspect that you haven't grasped the basic concept of what criticism is.
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by zidane »

Fish Preferred wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:03 pm !!QUOTE WALL INCOMING!!




zidane wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:33 am1)Sasha being abused by her alcoholic father which was solved offscreen and glanced over with a joke
So, what you're saying is you'd prefer to follow those characters through the legal minutia of an animal cruelty investigation that we already have the basic details on, rather than moving on to a new story arc?
2) Gale having to stitch herself due to a "betrayal" that was glanced over and solved with a idiotic joke
You seem to be confused. The betrayal Gale was referring to was Miles and Lucretia having pups, when he had previously convinced her the region could not support more. It wasn't glanced over in any sense; the issue was resolved when it became apparent that she could support a family by different means.
3)The whole situation between Max and Rufus
What about it?
4)That moment when Grape even cried as she was talking about a wolf who had to mutilate himself to be an actor because of the sheer prejudice animals face (it was in the arc Res was introduced)
Again, what about it? You aren't doing a very good job of getting your point across.
5)King being physicially abused to the point of tears by the other dogs during his watch arc and it was a "Joke" that forced Fido into helping him.
No, it wasn't. In any case, what would you suggest as an alternative?
My whole point was to show all flaws I've encountered in the comic and how to improve it, which would be to pick a tone and commit to it in a arc.
Great. You've put quite a bit into the former, now all you need to do is provide any even remotely helpful advice for the latter and you'll have something more constructive than a rant. What are you asking him to commit to? Full on Cerebus syndrome? Syndicated newspaper comic gags? Some kind of monotonous biographical format? Please explain.
I don't know if it was because Rick was scared of being "too dark" and thus backpedalled it, or because he wrote himself into a corner and wanted Gale and Miles to be friends, and so he had no idea how to do it, and, because of it, did it as a joke with a time skip.
In other words, you don't know his reason for making a plot decision, but you'd like to believe it's one of those two. Ok.
If he wants to make more serious story arcs, then he needs to learn to not add jokes in it because he does not know how to make them flow naturally.
Even if we pretended to agree on the matter, you've still provided no information as to how he is to accomplish that, which leads me to suspect that you haven't grasped the basic concept of what criticism is.
1) You are aware that there's more to Sasha's plotline than just legal talk, right? How about develop her relationship with her father and show them falling out as she realizes he was truly abusive? Remember that she was always in denial about it.

2)https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... the-enemy/
https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -the-team/
https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... ng-really/
https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... inal-blow/
The whole point of the betrayal was summarized, and the resolution was ridiculously easy given the emotional investment of it.

3) The plotline of the Temple was put on a halt for it and the whole "I'll ignore a person who I care about and I know who cares about me for no reason" was...weird, tô say the least.

4) It was to show that Rick introduces dark elements to his story, only to ignore or backpedal them. All because he does not know what kind of story he wants to tell in first place.

5) Fido literally walked away because he didn't want "face his brother", while facing his brother to help Peanut at the start of the comic. And don't give me the "It was because he related to Peanut's love for cats" when Fido was later shown doing his absolute hardest to hide his secret from others. So he would gladly risk having his secret exposed than helping a person being bullied that had no risk of expose his secret?

As for your coment about cerebus syndrome, you clearly didn't even bother to read what I had previously said about this matter. The story would flow better because each panel/page didn't revolve around a set up for a punchline and instead were used to move the plot forward. Several arcs had pages where the plot would just stop to tell a random joke that doesn't even blend seamlessly into the story.

He knows how to make light-hearted material (I have never laughed with them, but objectively speaking, they don't have any real flaw). His problems show up is when he attempts to make a more plot heavy arc.
D-Rock wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:53 pm Again, the issue is that you don’t seem to like Rick’s style of doing things for Housepets, and that’s fine. You like what you like, and you previously admitted long ago that Rick “does things right” in his other works. It’s less that he doesn’t know how, and more like you’re not gravitating to his preferred method in this particular work
And why can't he do things right in Housepets as well? It feels like people are doing their absolute hardest to ignore all flaws of the comic out of fear he'll stop writting it.
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by D-Rock »

Dude, consider that maybe the overall method Rick goes about Housepets IS what he considers is “right.”

Also, ignoring issues out of fear of hurting Rick’s ego? Seriously?

Alright, let’s start with just me, even though I know I’m probably not worth much.

I have been open about how I feel King and Bailey’s relationship has undertones of gourmand to the point that I can’t say they’re a favorite, even if they’re great, character-wise. This led to vitriol among certain others that spilled onto here and Twitter at the same time.
I have been open about how I viewed Tarot as in the right during Temple Crashers, that I viewed Keene as a reckless and stubborn fool for willingly putting not only the pets, but the whole planet at risk of destruction in whatever form it took, blamed it on Tarot, and wouldn’t admit fault until going through literal Hell. In fact, the strip with Lois strangling him, as misdirected as it was at the time, was very cathartic for me. He is only rather recently getting better in my eyes.
I have been open about how much all of this forced transformation bugs me, especially when I see so many claim that it’s an improvement because humanity sucks, something I don’t need reminders of.

I don’t like everything in Housepets. But that doesn’t mean I don’t love it. Far from it, it’s probably the piece of media that grabs the majority of my attention and creative workings. And Rick isn’t looking for a type of writing that pleases everyone. He’s making something that he enjoys, and it’s drawn so many others to enjoy and appreciate the world he’s making.

If you don’t like how he does Housepets, fine, you never had to. It’d just be better if you found something you did enjoy.
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Harry Johnathan
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Harry Johnathan »

Every criticism aside, this is only the second page of the revamped format.
Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But [The LORD] said, “Yes, you did laugh.” - Genesis 18:15 (NIV).
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Obbl »

Harry Johnathan wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:53 am The entire field of "high art" is nothing but people making blank canvasses with bananas taped to them or literal toilets mounted on plaques because critics have been lax towards them and excusing it because "it's an artistic statement!". If high art can fall so hard, imagine the terrifying depths webcomics could fall to if people just stopped criticizing and if creators just stopped listening.
I actually find the toilet installation quite interesting. It stands out immediately as feeling like it doesn't belong in an art exhibit, but that just draws your attention to it. At the same time it can make a statement on the art that's all around us hidden in plain sight, or perhaps a comment on what modern art has become (which would seem to agree with your own comment). And that is part of the point. Art means different things to different people, and when you are too quick to dismiss something because it's "not art", you can miss something very interesting or meaningful.

Mostly though, I find the idea that "art" itself (or any subbranch of art) could potentially "fall to terrifying depths" without outside criticism to be hyperbolic. Creators are often their own harshest critic, and while incorporating outside ideas can be extremely beneficial in giving you a different perspective on your work, chances are art would continue along just fine solely because artists want to improve their art.
Further critics are not immune from criticism. A critic whose only offerring is "Your style doesn't appeal to me personally therefore it is deeply flawed" is not doing a good job as a critic no matter how many examples they give that don't appeal to them personally. And when Zidane tries to dress up their argument by saying it's due to poor juxtaposition of tone, well, the root of the problem is still there as D-Rock said. It may not appeal to them, but it's apparently doing just fine for most people, and Rick himself seems to enjoy the juxtaposition (as there are many examples of it). Thus the art is satisfying the goal of the creator and appealing to a wide audience. To say that the whole thing is fundamentally flawed rings hollow in the face of that
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

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zidane wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:09 pm1) You are aware that there's more to Sasha's plotline than just legal talk, right?
Yes, and we saw plenty of it. It sounds like you're asking for an exhaustive side story detailing the life of a fairly insignificant side character. Not really something that's likely to be engaging.
The whole point of the betrayal was summarized, [...]
Yes. In fact, I put it all into a few words in my last post.
[...] and the resolution was ridiculously easy given the emotional investment of it.
No, it was very appropriately straightforward, since the confrontation arose due to a simple misunderstanding.
3) The plotline of the Temple was put on a halt for it [...]
No, it wasn't. That was only even brought up in the epilogue, AFTER all of the major events in the arc had occurred.
4) It was to show that Rick introduces dark elements to his story, only to ignore or backpedal them. All because he does not know what kind of story he wants to tell in first place.
Once again, you're just making up causes that don't have any factual basis. It's just what you'd like to believe, for whatever nebulous reason that may be.
5) Fido literally walked away because he didn't want "face his brother", [...]
No, he didn't.
As for your coment about cerebus syndrome, you clearly didn't even bother to read what I had previously said about this matter.
Of course. "My assertion can't possibly be wrong in any way, so if someone doesn't agree, they cannot have read it fully."
The story would flow better because each panel/page didn't revolve around a set up for a punchline and instead were used to move the plot forward.
No, it wouldn't, because a rapidly advancing plot doesn't make for good storytelling at all. So, you don't want him to skip the barely relevant details, but you also don't want to endure a pause in the action either (despite this being a comic that advances by three strips every week that you would necessarily have to wait for in order to follow the current story, but whatever). It really seems like you're just looking for something to complain about.
It’s less that he doesn’t know how, and more like you’re not gravitating to his preferred method in this particular work
Well then, first off, stop insisting that he doesn't know how to do it well. Second, your personal preference is irrelevant to his ability as a comic writer.
Obbl wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:31 pmI actually find the toilet installation quite interesting. It stands out immediately as feeling like it doesn't belong in an art exhibit, but that just draws your attention to it. At the same time it can make a statement on the art that's all around us hidden in plain sight, or perhaps a comment on what modern art has become (which would seem to agree with your own comment). And that is part of the point. Art means different things to different people, and when you are too quick to dismiss something because it's "not art", you can miss something very interesting or meaningful.
Unfortunately, the thing about modern art is that it's really more of a money laundering scheme than anything else. It doesn't actually matter what it means, or what thought went into its creation, as long as it can be insured for millions and written off as a "charitable donation" on the tax forms. Sorry for the tangent.
Last edited by D-Rock on Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Double-posting. Please use the Edit function to add more to your posts if no one has yet to post in the meantime.
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Harry Johnathan »

Obbl wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:31 pm
Harry Johnathan wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:53 am The entire field of "high art" is nothing but people making blank canvasses with bananas taped to them or literal toilets mounted on plaques because critics have been lax towards them and excusing it because "it's an artistic statement!". If high art can fall so hard, imagine the terrifying depths webcomics could fall to if people just stopped criticizing and if creators just stopped listening.
I actually find the toilet installation quite interesting. It stands out immediately as feeling like it doesn't belong in an art exhibit, but that just draws your attention to it. At the same time it can make a statement on the art that's all around us hidden in plain sight, or perhaps a comment on what modern art has become (which would seem to agree with your own comment). And that is part of the point. Art means different things to different people, and when you are too quick to dismiss something because it's "not art", you can miss something very interesting or meaningful.

Mostly though, I find the idea that "art" itself (or any subbranch of art) could potentially "fall to terrifying depths" without outside criticism to be hyperbolic. Creators are often their own harshest critic, and while incorporating outside ideas can be extremely beneficial in giving you a different perspective on your work, chances are art would continue along just fine solely because artists want to improve their art.
Further critics are not immune from criticism. A critic whose only offerring is "Your style doesn't appeal to me personally therefore it is deeply flawed" is not doing a good job as a critic no matter how many examples they give that don't appeal to them personally. And when Zidane tries to dress up their argument by saying it's due to poor juxtaposition of tone, well, the root of the problem is still there as D-Rock said. It may not appeal to them, but it's apparently doing just fine for most people, and Rick himself seems to enjoy the juxtaposition (as there are many examples of it). Thus the art is satisfying the goal of the creator and appealing to a wide audience. To say that the whole thing is fundamentally flawed rings hollow in the face of that
Fair point.
Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But [The LORD] said, “Yes, you did laugh.” - Genesis 18:15 (NIV).
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Obbl »

One of the major issues here (as has been explained numerous times before) is that Housepets! was always intended to about "funny animals". It was meant to have a point of closure that was more lighthearted at the end of each strip. A fair number of Zidane's critiques boil down to "there was a joke at the end of the strip", and well, yeah, yeah there was, cause that's the format. If you don't like the format, you don't have to like the format, but saying an author doesn't know how to do tone well because you don't like his format is just silly. The critique that you would like this better in another format is valid, but the author isn't obligated to take that advice, and the people who enjoy the format the way it is aren't obligated to either.
But also, yeah, this ascribing a motivation to Rick's choices that you actually have no way of knowing is going to get tiresome really quickly, Zidane. Rick actually seems to enjoy humor in dark moments and that's probably the only motivation that exists. It's not that he's afraid to commit to darkness or doesn't know what kind of story he wants to tell. It's that sometimes dark moments have a note of humor to them when view from a different perspective, and sometimes highlighting pain in humor is fun.
Also most of the points you're making currently have almost nothing to do with tone, but instead with pacing or plot consistency (with events that happened years prior at the the start of the comic before Rick had fully fleshed out his chracters). You also tend to interpret a situation one way and then refuse to see it any other way even when the other way being offerred harmonizes your problem points. Arguing past other people in this way doesn't make for good discussion
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Amazee Dayzee »

I try to stay away from arguing in general because I don't like to derail topics. But that is just me.
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Dissension »

At its core, Housepets! has been a gag-a-day comic since day one. We got rid of front page comments to let each strip be considered based on its own merits and not the opinions of whoever posted first. You may recall the first strip without comments was this one, which also doesn't have a joke.

We have this whole arc to wrap up before classic Housepets! is over, so if you're not here for the kinds of things we've seen over the last 13 years, you're probably not gonna enjoy the next year or so. I'm sorry.
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Frank »

"So why did you break up?"
"Garfield"
"...The President?"
"No"
"...oh"
"yeah"

I've given up on making comics more times than I can count because I try to write the script for a few strips and then realize "...wait where's the punchline? 75% of these strips are just story!" And yes I have tried coming back to it after a few weeks or months or even years... same result

I've tried to make do by being funny in comments, forums, and chatrooms, but more than half the time, my jokes backfire

So yes I appreciate how hard it is to be consistently funny, more than you can know
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Harry Johnathan »

Frank wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:58 am I've given up on making comics more times than I can count because I try to write the script for a few strips and then realize "...wait where's the punchline? 75% of these strips are just story!" So yes I appreciate how hard it is to be consistently funny, more than you can know.
Maybe you retool those old ideas to be story driven and not comedic.
Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But [The LORD] said, “Yes, you did laugh.” - Genesis 18:15 (NIV).
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Amazee Dayzee »

I could never really be funny no matter what I could do at all when it comes down to it. Then again, I have a very twisted sense of humor.
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by LunarFox »

Lois, don't be a hater,
HP's done gone meta,
So which wall's broken now-
Time to escape, but how?

Sometimes, Marion, what it takes
Is going and jacking up the stakes-
How much of Garfield's unfunny- Most-
Now hurry up before you roast...!
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Re: 2021/09/28 - Getting Hot In Here

Post by Amazee Dayzee »

Even if they couldn't get out due to the beam wrapped around the car, they can at least make sure they don't cook to death. Just break the windows of the car. The beam won't stop air coming in.
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