Housepets! Tails of Babylon! * Developer's Thread *

[SuperStar]

Man, SO many posts to read through. Honestly, I think we need to work on our communication skills.
But anyway, I have two options about the whole Teoxwatchicallhim thing.
1, make a very similar character Taoxiwhateverhisnamwahs and characters lampshade what a rip-off he is, and question what his purpose is.
2, use Toawhatshimanyway but then in the end do a small thing that implies "Was it him or was it not?".

[CHAOKOCartoons]

I honestly don't see the problem with just using him though. He doesn't require much of any character, he just needs a reason. Heck, the guy doesn't even talk in the comic all we have to do is present him as a threat, fight him, and explain why he did it (not exactly in that order (?)).
Though admittedly, I am curious as to what you had in mind for that rip off character idea. Sound's like it'd be pretty funny if pulled off right.
2 is also an interesting idea, but I'll have to ask for a bit more of an elaboration of what you mean by that.

[SuperStar]

Well, for option 1 I was thinking maybe he could look exactly like Taox, just with a different color, and he has a very similar but different name.
As for option 2, it could be like it's obviously Taox, but he never talks or anything. And then after they defeat him, Sabrina's all like something like, "Why would he suddenly do this?". And then someone else in the party is like. "Well... he never did say anything, so how do we know it was the same South-American Jaguar Ghost?"

[GreatKitsune]

This idea has spread across 3 pages now. I think this is a first.

Anyways, like Chaoko and Supe, I think keeping to cannon would be wise. Supe's idea may work, tho, but it would take especially careful writing to pull off. I will say that I'm fine with any outcome, so long as progress isn't impeded.

So, just to make sure i'm not misunderstanding this again,

Star - against deviation from canon.
Buster - thought we had already thrown canon out the window, confused, okay with breaking canon if it improves the story.
Obbl - okay with some deviation from cannon as long as it's done well and is interesting?
CHAOKO - neutral but arguing for both sides for some reason?
Rocky - No comment so far.
King - No comment so far.
GK - No comment so far.

Do i have this right so far?

King is now the only unvoiced party, it seems.

[GameCobra]

Also, did you guys skip this post or something? No one's said a word about the suggestion that I've seen...

Also, had an idea for a chapter. Nue and Olde's shenanigans are making certain spirits restless, such as a certain teleporting specter from the K-9 unit's first arc. The enemies for that chapter would be ghosts 'n such, forcing the player to change tactics, as the techniques effective against incorporeal beings are different than corporeal ones. And Teoxihuitl could make a return appearance as the boss. Apparently he made a deal with a certain duo, looks like Sabrina helping with his 'coming to terms' with his existence wasn't as effective as previously thought (Or N/O are messing with him, one or the other)

Huh. no, i missed that somehow, my bad.

I think fighting Teoxihuitl would be fun just to write out his warrior abilities in the RPG.

If you guys can script it: we should play a trivia game with him before fighting him. If you get it wrong, he attacks you. This makes his guardian role more meaningful and not entirely antagonistic.

I actually thought something similar with the Gruus. I made them near-immune to physical attacks, but vulnerable to magic. A neat idea about what you are suggesting is that we can have accessories that gives special moves against the ghosts, or just make it so that you can hurt the ghosts. would that work?

I'm off to work, but a final thought: I'm more worried about the RPG being too dark than canon. =P

[Buster]

And even if the character improvement is drastic IN THE GAME, you know it's gonna end in an "Or was it?" anyway. The only limit to character change would be to the point of them not being "them" anymore. If they still act like themselves after the development (which they will), IT'S FINE.

And this right here, is the problem I have with all of this. the rest of what you've been rehashing doesn't matter to me. It's not that character development, or events with lasting consequences can't happen, Its that they're meaningless if we're constrained by who canon says they're supposed to be, and what's supposed to happen, because I know they'll be minimized or undone. No event that occurs will have any gravity, because the consequences don't last, and the characters at their core stay the same. Because in the end nothing really changes, none of it mattered.

But, it's also painfully obvious that no amount of explaining is going to get that across, because apparently Obbl is the only one on either side who's listening. This argument is never going to end because everyone, even you, are constantly missing the point.

This project isn't what I thought it was when I joined, and I can't take this bickering.

I'm out.

[CHAOKOCartoons]

But, it's also painfully obvious that no amount of explaining is going to get that across, because apparently Obbl is the only one on either side who's listening. This argument is never going to end because everyone, even you, are constantly missing the point.

This project isn't what I thought it was when I joined, and I can't take this bickering.

I'm out.

I understand the point, it is a valid point, but I'm just saying it's not what we originally set out to do. That doesn't mean it's wrong though because we can just change it! On top of that, you've only been arguing with just me, not the group or the project. What your saying goes against my opinion, but what does my opionion matter?! This is a group effort, and if the group is siding with your opinion (which they are) then we can go with that because it's what the majority of the group wanted. If the group does something, I will go with it even if I'm not 100% with it. I probably shouldn't be a writer for the story in that case, but really we've all been putting in our own ideas as a whole. If the group finds it best, then clearly they can find a way to make it work.

I have faith in our abilities to make this game work as a group even if it's different than what I personally wanted. I'm sure you guys can show me that it can work, we just don't have evidence of that at the moment, but I'm willing to see what you have to offer.

[GreatKitsune]

Maybe we should table this option for a few days to let everything cool off. Buster, you're the most qualified spritist among us. I'd hate to see you leave over a plot dispute. We should all calm down and bring things back to the pace we were working after the 1st demo. Maybe focus on art and sound for a few days, until we catch up to the current plot, then start writing and designing again. Maybe after the next weapon, face, and sprite sheets come in.

[Obbl]

Okay, guys.
When someone says you are missing their point, continuing to assure them that you understand is not going to improve the situation.

Buster, you are very dedicated to making this a great game. That is well appreciated. But please don't forget that everyone else here is as well. If we come to a point where you specifically think something will be detrimental to the game, we can discuss the specifics, and I believe everyone will look at it with the interest of making the best game we can. This argument has all been a fairly "meta" discussion with a tiny tether back to a specific point of contention. If we need to discuss this story point, we need ideas for what should happen and discussion on what works best. We have a few suggestions already; we can go from there.

Questions about this story point:

Also, had an idea for a chapter. Nue and Olde's shenanigans are making certain spirits restless, such as a certain teleporting specter from the K-9 unit's first arc. The enemies for that chapter would be ghosts 'n such, forcing the player to change tactics, as the techniques effective against incorporeal beings are different than corporeal ones. And Teoxihuitl could make a return appearance as the boss. Apparently he made a deal with a certain duo, looks like Sabrina helping with his 'coming to terms' with his existence wasn't as effective as previously thought (Or N/O are messing with him, one or the other).

1. Do we want to do ghosts? (forces the character to adjust party members for best efficiency in fighting)
2. What reasoning could we give for Teoxihuitl's involvement? (see examples from quote)
3. Do we want Teoxihuitl? (why or why not?)

I like the idea of ghosts/phantoms, and forcing the user to think about and adjust party structure is a god way to get them to try out more of the game mechanics. I like the idea of Nue and Olde messing with Teoxihuitl or misdirecting him in some way. It takes the focus off of him as a "bad guy" which is a lot easier to make work with the existing story we have of him. Alternatively, he could ally himself with the group (or turn to ally mid way through), though this will require us to come up with a spectral boss. I think the nod to Teoxihuitl is well deserved in this game, and this seems to be a good place to use him.

[GameCobra]

It's the same reason why I suggested trivia for him as well. He'd be a great first choice to test this kind of mechanic on. There's never a problem with introducing new elements to the game, same goes for ways to fit it in as well.

Buster, please don't leave the project over this. If we're not all on the same page here, we can easily look into ways of fixing this.

[CHAOKOCartoons]

Questions about this story point:

Also, had an idea for a chapter. Nue and Olde's shenanigans are making certain spirits restless, such as a certain teleporting specter from the K-9 unit's first arc. The enemies for that chapter would be ghosts 'n such, forcing the player to change tactics, as the techniques effective against incorporeal beings are different than corporeal ones. And Teoxihuitl could make a return appearance as the boss. Apparently he made a deal with a certain duo, looks like Sabrina helping with his 'coming to terms' with his existence wasn't as effective as previously thought (Or N/O are messing with him, one or the other).

1. Do we want to do ghosts? (forces the character to adjust party members for best efficiency in fighting)
2. What reasoning could we give for Teoxihuitl's involvement? (see examples from quote)
3. Do we want Teoxihuitl? (why or why not?)

I like the idea of ghosts/phantoms, and forcing the user to think about and adjust party structure is a god way to get them to try out more of the game mechanics. I like the idea of Nue and Olde messing with Teoxihuitl or misdirecting him in some way. It takes the focus off of him as a "bad guy" which is a lot easier to make work with the existing story we have of him. Alternatively, he could ally himself with the group (or turn to ally mid way through), though this will require us to come up with a spectral boss. I think the nod to Teoxihuitl is well deserved in this game, and this seems to be a good place to use him.

It's the same reason why I suggested trivia for him as well. He'd be a great first choice to test this kind of mechanic on. There's never a problem with introducing new elements to the game, same goes for ways to fit it in as well.

I agree, it would be innovative in terms of gameplay, and seems like a logical scenario to have him in. Any ideas as to which chapter this should be in? I assume early on or midway through since its introducing a lot of new things.

[D-Rock]

Got a team logo. That's about it for now. Nothing special, just used a stencil I found at Goodwill today and drew in a feather, myself. Cleaned up and colored if you guys like it.

[SuperStar]

It's sad to see Buster go. Hopefully she'll come back, but in the meantime, Chaoko, you can replicate the style right?
That looks great Rocky, it picks up the mood.

[CHAOKOCartoons]

Uuuuh, I mean not that much but I can try in the meantime . I hope she comes back though, her style was pretty elaborate in terms of shading so I don't think it'd be a good idea until we for sure know if she's coming back. I mean I wouldn't even know where to start or what to work on at the moment...

[Dissension]

I really don't understand the backlash for someone wanting to use one very trivial character who was in the comic for all of three strips when there seems to be no problem using all the other characters and creating your own. Literally nothing about this project is canon as far as I'm concerned. It just doesn't matter if Rick decides to use the character again, even if it's counter to how y'all choose to portray said character. To be crippled by fear of something that might happen, especially insofar as it pertains to a creative endeavor, is at least a little silly. If the character works for your story, use him; if not, don't use him. Those are really the only considerations fan projects should bear in mind. Having said those things, in this instance, there is a really straightforward way to find out whether something will happen down the road that may impact your use of a character: The person who writes the comic is on this forum. It takes very little time to compose an e-mail or a PM saying "Hey, are you gonna use that jaguar guy again?" or "We want to use this one character but in a way that's consistent with how you plan to portray them. Would you give us some general guidelines for how s/he behaves?" (As a freebie, there aren't any plans to bring him back and he behaves as depicted in the comic.)

At this point, my primary concern is that everyone is treated with respect and civility. If someone has an idea and they're beaten over the head with the same argument till they shut up and go with the majority or leave the group, that is very much counter to the Housepets! spirit.

[SuperStar]

Sorry Diss, I'm sure we all didn't want it to turn into what it did. I seriously didn't see any animosity in the conversation until all the sudden the tone took a sudden 90degree turn.

And about that whole contacting Rick thing: We are dumbos, and never thought of that, :S Maybe I'll go do it now.

[D-Rock]

I wish I could say, "I won't be silent, anymore," but I know that won't happen. What I can say is this;

I don't think we wanted to go up to Rick and ask what could potentially be stories for the future. Not our right to do so.

BUT,

I was perfectly fine with coming up with something original and even out of the blue with now unused characters. I'm sure all of these fan fics, whether subjectively good or bad, did the same thing. The important thing is that they tend to add more to everyone. Rick has introduced us to a massive array of characters, many of which will likely never appear again. We have an opportunity to really do something more with them, team. We have an opportunity to take these characters that we have come to know so well, and see how they could react to being exposed to something new. Will we see Bino, Joey, Rex, Res, and others ever deal with the supernatural in canon. I highly doubt it. Which is one reason we're doing this. We can bring their personality, who they are, into something else, yet they could still be considered themselves, because we're trying to make it how they would truly react in canon to said event.




However, my greatest fear is that bridges have been burned.

[SuperStar]

Just got a message back from Mr. Griffin. He says he has no plans for the Teox, so Buster's plan should be a go! Should we contact?

[CHAOKOCartoons]

I really don't understand the backlash for someone wanting to use one very trivial character who was in the comic for all of three strips when there seems to be no problem using all the other characters and creating your own. Literally nothing about this project is canon as far as I'm concerned. It just doesn't matter if Rick decides to use the character again, even if it's counter to how y'all choose to portray said character. To be crippled by fear of something that might happen, especially insofar as it pertains to a creative endeavor, is at least a little silly. If the character works for your story, use him; if not, don't use him. Those are really the only considerations fan projects should bear in mind. Having said those things, in this instance, there is a really straightforward way to find out whether something will happen down the road that may impact your use of a character: The person who writes the comic is on this forum. It takes very little time to compose an e-mail or a PM saying "Hey, are you gonna use that jaguar guy again?" or "We want to use this one character but in a way that's consistent with how you plan to portray them. Would you give us some general guidelines for how s/he behaves?" (As a freebie, there aren't any plans to bring him back and he behaves as depicted in the comic.)

At this point, my primary concern is that everyone is treated with respect and civility. If someone has an idea and they're beaten over the head with the same argument till they shut up and go with the majority or leave the group, that is very much counter to the Housepets! spirit.

I'm very sorry Dissension, my intention was not to argue about weather the character should be allowed to be used. I was okay with it, but trying to explain Super's/my reasoning for being cautious (which is admittedly silly ). Somewhere it took a sharp turn into how we are writing the story, and I ended up trying to defend my opinion to an excessive rate. So much to the point where I didn't get why we were even having the conversation anymore.
We are well aware that it isn't canon as stated before, we were trying to make it a believable story in context of the original story... which is again, not necessary. I never wanted to label how the story is written, the "canon" thing was just me and Super's opinion. We should just write it as we go. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
I am sorry to any I have offended (which is most of you since 80% of you since you were trying to explain her point to me). I was in the wrong for continuing that dispute for as long as it was, and I take full responsibility for my stubborn behavior. I will proceed to place my self in the shame corner and acknowledge my foolishness.

And about that whole contacting Rick thing: We are dumbos, and never thought of that, :S Maybe I'll go do it now.

Can confirm, also a dumbo.

[SuperStar]

Something I would like to say(that probably should have been brought up sooner), the concept of making it "as canon as possible" or "believable canon" was decided ever since almost the beginning of the project.

[Dissension]

Just got a message back from Mr. Griffin. He says he has no plans for the Teox, so Buster's plan should be a go! Should we contact?

I told y'all in my post that there aren't plans for Teoxihuitl to return. Ya didn't have to PM Rick. x3

[SuperStar]

I've been missing everything recently. Man, whoops

[GameCobra]

No biggie. We all make mistakes. X3

The point is at this point of the project that we make sure we're all on the same level. That's the point of this topic at this point since we're developers and making mistakes is part of the course. we oughta think that the general idea of the game is to make it a fun experience for everyone that wants to help out. I think it's safe to assume at this point that canon will be used to keep the story interesting for casual comic readers, but for the most part, the comic canon will mostly be used for material. Like Mario in Super Mario RPG. =3

Still, though, we should throw in some fun references to the comic... and fan teasing :3

[SuperStar]

I restate, it has been said since near the beginning of the project to stay as canon as possible. It's never been an unspoken assumption, anyway...

[GameCobra]

I restate, it has been said since near the beginning of the project to stay as canon as possible. It's never been an unspoken assumption, anyway...

If we want to keep it as canon as possible with our own story mixed into it, that's fine. I just don't want anymore confusion over this.

Maybe we should focus on something that was said earlier:

I put a suggestion chapter-boss list up before with 10 regular chapters, a final chapter, 5 postgame chapters, and a post-final chapter. This amounted to 15 hour regular game, 6-7 hour postgame. To be honest, tho, it might work better to extend the regular game to 12-17 chapters and a final (and maybe a short pre-final). If it keeps the usual time legnth pattern, it would extend to about 17-22 hours or so, which seems ideal for the main plot. Then an eventual 10-12 hours of DLC bonus content and NO MO' POTO'!!!

Why don't we focus on a guideline first so we got a good idea what kind of material we are writing and designing? Granted, the game won't be fully limited to this guideline, but if the game is going by chapters, each chapter has a theme and we can focus on it for now.

Ex:

Chapter 1 - The Forest Temple, Forest, Nightime at Babylon Garden
Chapter 2 - The Mall
Chapter 3 - Caves and ghosts
Chapter 4 - The zoo
Chapter 5 - The streets of Babylon Garden

[CHAOKOCartoons]

I restate, it has been said since near the beginning of the project to stay as canon as possible. It's never been an unspoken assumption, anyway...

If we want to keep it as canon as possible with our own story mixed into it, that's fine. I just don't want anymore confusion over this.

Maybe we should focus on something that was said earlier:

I put a suggestion chapter-boss list up before with 10 regular chapters, a final chapter, 5 postgame chapters, and a post-final chapter. This amounted to 15 hour regular game, 6-7 hour postgame. To be honest, tho, it might work better to extend the regular game to 12-17 chapters and a final (and maybe a short pre-final). If it keeps the usual time legnth pattern, it would extend to about 17-22 hours or so, which seems ideal for the main plot. Then an eventual 10-12 hours of DLC bonus content and NO MO' POTO'!!!

Why don't we focus on a guideline first so we got a good idea what kind of material we are writing and designing? Granted, the game won't be fully limited to this guideline, but if the game is going by chapters, each chapter has a theme and we can focus on it for now.

Ex:

Chapter 1 - The Forest Temple, Forest, Nightime at Babylon Garden
Chapter 2 - The Mall
Chapter 3 - Caves and ghosts
Chapter 4 - The zoo
Chapter 5 - The streets of Babylon Garden

Well, I did NOT say that but I agree with making a form of guideline. (GreatKitsune was the one that said that)

[GameCobra]

Same difference! (Not really, but I found that amusing =P)

If we're cool with that at least, then we can focus on the Mall scenario for now.

[SuperStar]

WAIT! Quick question! How is this "Streets of Babylon Gardens" gonna work? Because we already walk through Babylon Gardens in Chapter 1 and 2.

[D-Rock]

Finished the logo. Doing a trace-over was a much more strenuous task than I thought, so I simply did a few effects on the original scan and colored, erasing many stray marks. I decided to keep a lot of them, though, as it would take a very long time to clean, and the look started to grow on me.

Also, I have an announcement. I wish to inform the team that I will be taking a temporary break from designing weapons.

Couple reasons, actually.

I feel that I've been running myself ragged with these the past few months, and I really needed a break. I'll likely be back in a month. I may use this time for more personal art on my page, as there is a contest I'd like to enter, or a complete halt for that time. Hopefully I'll be more refreshed after that.

Second reason, sadly, is because of this recent fiasco. I wasn't going to take a break at all, but this seemed to expedite it. Get my mind off of that for a bit. That's a "me" issue, as I tend to let things gnaw at my mind, which is a habit that hasn't broken yet, though my boss and supervisor have been trying to help with that.

DO NOTE,

I have no intention of leaving this team. I can't bring myself to do that. It's likely my stubbornness, but I'm seeing this through to the end. Only ways I'm leaving is if for some reason the rest of the team decides to let me go, at which point I will leave, or the game is cancelled, but I foresee neither situation coming true.

Also, that does not mean that I won't be active on this thread. I will still be keeping tabs, throwing in my thoughts where necessary. What it means is that I won't be actively designing for the project for a short time.

[GameCobra]

It was just an example, but I figured an idea we could come up with halfway through the game is a fully unlocked, fully explored Babylon Garden.

And it's cool, D-Rock. don't let things bring you down.

[SuperStar]

I really like the way the logo looks, nice work!
Yeah, take a break, you deserve it man! In fact, I'm sure a lot of us feel tired right now...

Only ways I'm leaving is if for some reason the rest of the team decides to let me go, at which point I will leave, or the game is cancelled, but I foresee neither situation coming true.

Eh, right. *whispers*Hey guys, cancel the "Remove D-Rock" Project, kay?*whispers*

[Saturn381]

Nice job, D-Rock.

[SuperStar]

Okay, since I'm not like the leader or anything I don't have the right to say this, but I think it'd be best if we all took a little break to clear our minds and just rest. I think we all could use it.

[GameCobra]

I'm fine. =P

This is too much fun to work on to need a break <3

[Amazee Dayzee]

Really nice job on that logo D-Rock! It looks very nice!

[GreatKitsune]

Yeah, I'll be inactive for a while, too. Some of my sound-related equipment broke and I have to send it back to Germany for repairs or replacement (I love warranties).

[Amazee Dayzee]

Wow that really sucks. I hope you get your equipment back soon!

[GameCobra]

Going to be taking a bit of a break this weekend, actually. Doctor's check-up. weird stuff, though. like Medicine weird. X3

[Amazee Dayzee]

I hope that everything is OK with you then.

[KingFan202]

So has everything been sorted out or is stuff still not going well?