2014/07/09 - So It's More of a Ceasefire

[valerio]

Everyone seems to think that Bailey is an innocent civilian caught in all this, and that she was tricked, but it was with her own free will that she signed the contract. It was her decision to do all this, even if she didn't know she'd be doing it it was her decision. She's working with Pete, so she's the enemy.

WRONG! She took that decision because 1) she didn't want to see King hurt, just like King would have fought for the same reason and 2) because she was presented as ONLY option the end of King and her marriage and happiness. What would have YOU done, dismiss it with a shrug?! OF COURSE she signed. But that's not more an act of free will than you conceding to an enemy with a gun ready to shoot aimed at your head.
And YES, her whole danged LIFE was manipulated so that she'd end up marrying King and come to this point, so she IS an innocent civilian. And we, as readers, were led with ability to believe to the last moment that it would be King who'd make the sacrifice

EDIT - Oh, and Obbl

Think of it as a football game. You can take it seriously if you want, but that's not my way... Just because there's two sides doesn't always mean they're good and evil.

If a game has, as direct consequence, the suffering of any part involved, and not the metaphorical suffering of a supporter in a football game, then I think it can be taken quite seriously. Call me old-fashioned

[SuperStar]

Everyone seems to think that Bailey is an innocent civilian caught in all this, and that she was tricked, but it was with her own free will that she signed the contract. It was her decision to do all this, even if she didn't know she'd be doing it it was her decision. She's working with Pete, so she's the enemy.

WRONG! She took that decision because 1) she didn't want to see King hurt, just like King would have fought for the same reason and 2) because she was presented as ONLY option the end of King and her marriage and happiness. What would have YOU done, dismiss it with a shrug?! OF COURSE she signed. But that's not more an act of free will than you conceding to an enemy with a gun ready to shoot aimed at your head.
And YES, her whole danged LIFE was manipulated so that she'd end up marrying King and come to this point, so she IS an innocent civilian. And we, as readers, were led with ability to believe to the last moment that it would be King who'd make the sacrifice.

Wow, getting a little loud. I know that there where consequences if Bailey didn't choose to help Pete, but dealing with terrorists isn't the best decision. And also, even if Bailey is a innocent bystander that doesn't automatically make Sabrina and Tarot bad/jerks.

[valerio]

Wow, getting a little loud. I know that there where consequences if Bailey didn't choose to help Pete, but dealing with terrorists isn't the best decision. And also, even if Bailey is a innocent bystander that doesn't automatically make Sabrina and Tarot bad/jerks.

See my answer above.
In retrospect, they are NOT surely being the 'good side' team we were led to know, and considering what 'game' they are playing, and hurt they are VOLUNTARILY causing, I can't see them standing on any moral position at the moment.
I could concede they are playing a part. That's the only reservation left from my side.

[SuperStar]

Wow, getting a little loud. I know that there where consequences if Bailey didn't choose to help Pete, but dealing with terrorists isn't the best decision. And also, even if Bailey is a innocent bystander that doesn't automatically make Sabrina and Tarot bad/jerks.

See my answer above.
In retrospect, they are NOT surely being the 'good side' team we were led to know, and considering what 'game' they are playing, and hurt they are VOLUNTARILY causing, I can't see them standing on any moral position at the moment.
I could concede they are playing a part. That's the only reservation left from my side.

You say they cause hurt... But isn't Bailey also actively fighting? And I fail to see where in your previous post how they are not quite the 'good side' team.

[valerio]

You say they cause hurt... But isn't Bailey also actively fighting? And I fail to see where in your previous post how they are not quite the 'good side' team.

I mean 'hurt' to those who are close to them: as Obbl rightly pointed out, this is a fight, bruises are expected!
Fido is suffering anxiety separation, but at least he's being spared the truth.
King knows everything and he's helpless, which is like living his own personal hell in heaven. So yes, the cosmic jerks and their acolytes are hurting innocents for the sake of their twisted fun.
And on a 'supporter' point of view, yes, I hope Bailey wins and teach those two...witches, a nice lesson. End.

[SuperStar]

You say they cause hurt... But isn't Bailey also actively fighting? And I fail to see where in your previous post how they are not quite the 'good side' team.

I mean 'hurt' to those who are close to them: as Obbl rightly pointed out, this is a fight, bruises are expected!
Fido is suffering anxiety separation, but at least he's being spared the truth.
King knows everything and he's helpless, which is like living his own personal hell in heaven. So yes, the cosmic jerks and their acolytes are hurting innocents for the sake of their twisted fun.
And on a 'supporter' point of view, yes, I hope Bailey wins and teach those two...witches, a nice lesson. End.

I hope i don't seem like an unwavrring stick in the mud, I just like seeing both sides. One last round of questions.

You say Fido is suffering, but at least he is spared from the truth. However, truth is one of the greatest things, there isn't such thing as being protected from the truth. It's better to know something then be held from it.

I see that you want Bailey to win, but that would inturn lead Pete to win, and logically that doesn't seem to be the best outcome.

[valerio]

I hope i don't seem like an unwavrring stick in the mud, I just like seeing both sides. One last round of questions.
You say Fido is suffering, but at least he is spared from the truth. However, truth is one of the greatest things, there isn't such thing as being protected from the truth. It's better to know something then be held from it.
I see that you want Bailey to win, but that would inturn lead Pete to win, and logically that doesn't seem to be the best outcome.

I don't know Fido enough. he'd surely be loyal to Sabrina, but in the long run how would you trust someone who...well, is not exactly the person you thought on so many levels and whose actions can hurt your friend? Even indirectly: King is not Fido's buddy but Fox and Bailey are: if any of them would have problems over this 'game', I don't think Fido would take it with 'o well, I hope you guys had fun anyway'. But again, this is pure speculation since Fido knows nothing and perhaps is better so. He's used to Sabrina being strange after all.
So? Pete wins, Bailey's wishes are granted, a marriage is saved and this will be over with. And that band of no-good cheaters of team dragon are taught a lesson, even better.

[Turkledurk]

After seeing this debate about who's good and who's bad. I still think the dragon AND the griffon are going to mess up. and they are BOTH going to end up losing. Maybe a loophole in Pete's contract? A mistake in choice of avatar on the dragons side? Who knows!?!

[valerio]

After seeing this debate about who's good and who's bad. I still think the dragon AND the griffon are going to mess up. and they are BOTH going to end up losing. Maybe a loophole in Pete's contract? A mistake in choice of avatar on the dragons side? Who knows!?!

and that, Sir, would be the best outcome *ever*
And both of them grounded in mortal shape, hmmm...

[SuperStar]

I hope i don't seem like an unwavrring stick in the mud, I just like seeing both sides. One last round of questions.
You say Fido is suffering, but at least he is spared from the truth. However, truth is one of the greatest things, there isn't such thing as being protected from the truth. It's better to know something then be held from it.
I see that you want Bailey to win, but that would inturn lead Pete to win, and logically that doesn't seem to be the best outcome.

I don't know Fido enough. he'd surely be loyal to Sabrina, but in the long run how would you trust someone who...well, is not exactly the person you thought on so many levels and whose actions can hurt your friend? Even indirectly: King is not Fido's buddy but Fox and Bailey are: if any of them would have problems over this 'game', I don't think Fido would take it with 'o well, I hope you guys had fun anyway'. But again, this is pure speculation since Fido knows nothing and perhaps is better so. He's used to Sabrina being strange after all.
So? Pete wins, Bailey's wishes are granted, a marriage is saved and this will be over with. And gray band of no-good cheaters of team dragon are taught a lesson, even better.

Okay, thanks for answering my questions. But I sill fail to see how Team Dragon are cheaters, but I'll leave it there.

[SmileWolf]

I see all the stuff being spewed about this character is bad or that side is bad, and I don't think that's it at all. I think the situation is bad, and it's making the characters act in ways they wouldn't otherwise. Sabrina, Tarot, and Bailey are, whether voluntarily or otherwise, slaves to their masters, and what they would do if they were making their own decisions here is pretty much irrelevant. So really, I think it is unfair to spew at any of the fighters; it is the cosmic game players that are deserving of scorn and disgust. Mind control is the ultimate (short of death) stripping of an individual's identity and ability to think and act freely for themselves, so why get mad at the individuals affected?

It's interesting to note that the point of Babylon Gardens is equality for pets and owners, yet here we are reminded that above both pets or owners is a group that pretty much controls them both, albeit within a set of arbitrary rules they've put in place for themselves. Given Rick's storytelling skills and ability to surprise us, I wouldn't be surprised if the presence of that contrast is deliberate.

I understand why people are upset - to impose the situation on another franchise, this is like Luke, Han and Leia suddenly picking up weapons and beating the crap out of each other, with death the ultimate ending, and what Star Wars fan wouldn't be upset by that? But I think Rick deserves the benefit of the doubt that he will deliver a satisfying ending to the arc that will include a happy ever after, since he has already shown he has the skill to do that.

[Turkledurk]

And both of them grounded in mortal shape, hmmm...

OMG DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS!?!?!

[ConvoyWolf]

I see all the stuff being spewed about this character is bad or that side is bad, and I don't think that's it at all. I think the situation is bad, and it's making the characters act in ways they wouldn't otherwise. Sabrina, Tarot, and Bailey are, whether voluntarily or otherwise, slaves to their masters, and what they would do if they were making their own decisions here is pretty much irrelevant. So really, I think it is unfair to spew at any of the fighters; it is the cosmic game players that are deserving of scorn and disgust. Mind control is the ultimate (short of death) stripping of an individual's identity and ability to think and act freely for themselves, so why get mad at the individuals affected?

It's interesting to note that the point of Babylon Gardens is equality for pets and owners, yet here we are reminded that above both pets or owners is a group that pretty much controls them both, albeit within a set of arbitrary rules they've put in place for themselves. Given Rick's storytelling skills and ability to surprise us, I wouldn't be surprised if the presence of that contrast is deliberate.

I understand why people are upset - to impose the situation on another franchise, this is like Luke, Han and Leia suddenly picking up weapons and beating the crap out of each other, with death the ultimate ending, and what Star Wars fan wouldn't be upset by that? But I think Rick deserves the benefit of the doubt that he will deliver a satisfying ending to the arc that will include a happy ever after, since he has already shown he has the skill to do that.

Nice to know one or two people think the way i do.

[valerio]

I see all the stuff being spewed about this character is bad or that side is bad, and I don't think that's it at all. I think the situation is bad, and it's making the characters act in ways they wouldn't otherwise. Sabrina, Tarot, and Bailey are, whether voluntarily or otherwise, slaves to their masters, and what they would do if they were making their own decisions here is pretty much irrelevant. So really, I think it is unfair to spew at any of the fighters; it is the cosmic game players that are deserving of scorn and disgust. Mind control is the ultimate (short of death) stripping of an individual's identity and ability to think and act freely for themselves, so why get mad at the individuals affected?

Because the rules state that mind control can take place ONLY after permission from the avatar. Which means that, regardless of the use their 'master' will do of their free will, Sabrina and Tarot FREELY SUBMITTED to this infamy. SuperStar earlier said that it's worse to submit to terrorists than to cooperate with them. Well, Tarot and Sabrina are full-time volunteers, whereas Bailey was left no choice. Guess who DOESN'T got the moral stand here?

It's interesting to note that the point of Babylon Gardens is equality for pets and owners, yet here we are reminded that above both pets or owners is a group that pretty much controls them both, albeit within a set of arbitrary rules they've put in place for themselves. Given Rick's storytelling skills and ability to surprise us, I wouldn't be surprised if the presence of that contrast is deliberate.

Many speculations could be done, but this is another picture entirely. And let's not forget that, for all we know, this talk of equality is just for the lolz of the cosmic nerds. Pete admittedly founded that cult because he felt like. Dragon? She likes 'lower order beings', but her moral position is far from evident. Plus, the powers that be could just decide that this Game is no valid for such promises, so it was all empty talk...everything's possible

I understand why people are upset - to impose the situation on another franchise, this is like Luke, Han and Leia suddenly picking up weapons and beating the crap out of each other, with death the ultimate ending, and what Star Wars fan wouldn't be upset by that? But I think Rick deserves the benefit of the doubt that he will deliver a satisfying ending to the arc that will include a happy ever after, since he has already shown he has the skill to do that.

[/quote]
On that, no doubt at all. But mind me, BECAUSE Rick is AWESOME at writing, such is suspension in disbelief that there is hardlyh ANY disbelief. I wouldn't like this much a comic if my first thought went to 'oh, ok, it will be all right kissy kissy let's just skip to the end *yawn*'

[ConvoyWolf]

Yeah im ready for the next strip to come tomorrow. Honestly arguing over a foot to the face has nearly made m queasy on more than one occasion.

Too bad Squeak wasnt Petes avatar. At least shed in a way enjoy a cat's foot on her face.

[SmileWolf]

I see all the stuff being spewed about this character is bad or that side is bad, and I don't think that's it at all. I think the situation is bad, and it's making the characters act in ways they wouldn't otherwise. Sabrina, Tarot, and Bailey are, whether voluntarily or otherwise, slaves to their masters, and what they would do if they were making their own decisions here is pretty much irrelevant. So really, I think it is unfair to spew at any of the fighters; it is the cosmic game players that are deserving of scorn and disgust. Mind control is the ultimate (short of death) stripping of an individual's identity and ability to think and act freely for themselves, so why get mad at the individuals affected?

Because the rules state that mind control can take place ONLY after permission from the avatar. Which means that, regardless of the use their 'master' will do of their free will, Sabrina and Tarot FREELY SUBMITTED to this infamy. SuperStar earlier said that it's worse to submit to terrorists than to cooperate with them. Well, Tarot and Sabrina are full-time volunteers, whereas Bailey was left no choice. Guess who DOESN'T got the moral stand here?

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, but I think it's important to point out that we really don't have the backstory on Tarot and Sabrina - at least I can't recall it - that explains how they wound up being Dragon's avatar. But we do know that neither of them, of their own free will, would hurt Bailey or King, because that's been proven out by their behavior previously. And we also know the cosmic game players are masters of manipulating people into situations that force people to do what they want. How do we know that Sabrina and Tarot, like Bailey, weren't "given an offer they couldn't refuse?"

It's interesting to note that the point of Babylon Gardens is equality for pets and owners, yet here we are reminded that above both pets or owners is a group that pretty much controls them both, albeit within a set of arbitrary rules they've put in place for themselves. Given Rick's storytelling skills and ability to surprise us, I wouldn't be surprised if the presence of that contrast is deliberate.

Many speculations could be done, but this is another picture entirely. And let's not forget that, for all we know, this talk of equality is just for the lolz of the cosmic nerds. Pete admittedly founded that cult because he felt like. Dragon? She likes 'lower order beings', but her moral position is far from evident. Plus, the powers that be could just decide that this Game is no valid for such promises, so it was all empty talk...everything's possible

The one thing that makes me feel different about that is the fact that it was a human that conceived of the concept of equality, and the cosmic players, while they can control humans with circumstance if they're involved with a pet, sort of, there isn't a way they could influence the late Mr. Milton to decide what he did.

I understand why people are upset - to impose the situation on another franchise, this is like Luke, Han and Leia suddenly picking up weapons and beating the crap out of each other, with death the ultimate ending, and what Star Wars fan wouldn't be upset by that? But I think Rick deserves the benefit of the doubt that he will deliver a satisfying ending to the arc that will include a happy ever after, since he has already shown he has the skill to do that.

On that, no doubt at all. But mind me, BECAUSE Rick is AWESOME at writing, such is suspension in disbelief that there is hardlyh ANY disbelief. I wouldn't like this much a comic if my first thought went to 'oh, ok, it will be all right kissy kissy let's just skip to the end *yawn*

True dat.

[valerio]

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, but I think it's important to point out that we really don't have the backstory on Tarot and Sabrina - at least I can't recall it - that explains how they wound up being Dragon's avatar. But we do know that neither of them, of their own free will, would hurt Bailey or King, because that's been proven out by their behavior previously. And we also know the cosmic game players are masters of manipulating people into situations that force people to do what they want. How do we know that Sabrina and Tarot, like Bailey, weren't "given an offer they couldn't refuse?"

Depends: If Dragon actively blackmailed them into accepting the offer, then Tarot and Sabrina are relieved on the moral side, and I can believe they are planning their own deceit against their 'master' and against 'pete' so that both lose. VERY YAY!
And that, on the other hand, would confirm that Dragon is as much a creep as Pete, with the aggravant that Pete always showed but his true colors -only becoming more and more jerk with time, but staying the same at core. While dragon almost painted herself as a saint.

[SuperStar]

well, Dragon is inconsiderate, not exactly a jerk. But in the long run she is better than Pete. But personally, I prefer Kistune.

[valerio]

It's perfectly possible for both sides to be completely wrong. I think the entire gaming group manipulating mortals like this is pretty bad even if they weren't jerks, the excuses "That's life, deal with it for once" and "We don't do anything that life doesn't do to them already" are just excuses to do bad things for fun because they're bored.

Pete's overtly mean, he has fun being the biggest jerk possible. Dragon's not much better, while people seem to think she's "nicer" than Pete we haven't really seen her be nice to anyone other than Peanut. Every time she's "helped" King (getting him away from Pete, helping King find his watch) it's only been to gain an advantage over Pete, otherwise Dragon and Tarot have pretty much ignored King or flat out refused to help (though I do like to think Sabrina helped King out of kindness and not just because Dragon ordered her to). She's just as manipulative as Pete is, she just doesn't go "mwahaha" while she's doing it.

I highly doubt they're fighting to the death, so Sabrina attacking Bailey without warning might be a bit of a cheap attack but I hardly see it outside her character if she knows she's not actually going to hurt her that badly. However, on the other side of that, until it's stated otherwise in the comic I don't believe that Tarot and Sabrina were manipulated into following Dragon, while Bailey and King were tricked or outright forced, so for me it's a demijerk with her two willing accomplices fighting another demijerk fighting two unwilling victims.

*applaudes, confetti*

[Ryusuta]

It's perfectly possible for both sides to be completely wrong. I think the entire gaming group manipulating mortals like this is pretty bad even if they weren't jerks, the excuses "That's life, deal with it for once" and "We don't do anything that life doesn't do to them already" are just excuses to do bad things for fun because they're bored.

Pete's overtly mean, he has fun being the biggest jerk possible. Dragon's not much better, while people seem to think she's "nicer" than Pete we haven't really seen her be nice to anyone other than Peanut. Every time she's "helped" King (getting him away from Pete, helping King find his watch) it's only been to gain an advantage over Pete, otherwise Dragon and Tarot have pretty much ignored King or flat out refused to help (though I do like to think Sabrina helped King out of kindness and not just because Dragon ordered her to). She's just as manipulative as Pete is, she just doesn't go "mwahaha" while she's doing it.

I highly doubt they're fighting to the death, so Sabrina attacking Bailey without warning might be a bit of a cheap attack but I hardly see it outside her character if she knows she's not actually going to hurt her that badly. However, on the other side of that, until it's stated otherwise in the comic I don't believe that Tarot and Sabrina were manipulated into following Dragon, while Bailey and King were tricked or outright forced, so for me it's a demijerk with her two willing accomplices fighting another demijerk fighting two unwilling victims.

*applaudes, confetti*

*Joins the applause*

Well said! WELL SAID!

[exranio]

Personally I find the argument about Tarot or Sabrina being fooled, blackmailed, or whatever else people are saying to be really weird. I don't really understand how you could argue about the dragon being just as bad for what she's doing to those two when neither of them seem to mind. I can't recall any point where Tarot or Sabrina seemed upset about any of this, the closest I can think of was the relationship triangle between Tarot, Peanut, and the dragon. So I just don't get how you can feel wronged for characters who don't seem to feel wronged at all. Heck Tarot and Sabrina to some extent don't seem to even actually care (though mostly for comedy sake).

Unless I've been reading this entire discussion wrong.

On a side note, that tag out flying kick really just makes me think of MvC2.

[valerio]

Dragon somehow manipulated things so that Peanut and Grape would both fall in love and therefore Pete lost them as avatars. Whether or not Tarot actually loves Peanut now is irrelevant, toying with mortal emotions was initially done for the sake of the stupid game.

Tarot only helps King when it benefits Dragon. She only ratted Pete out to Kitsune to again stop Pete from gaining an avatar (was Dragon's original goal to simply keep the game at a stalemate for eternity?), not just to save King from mean old griffins. Otherwise she's been pretty cold to him. King realizes this which is why he slammed the door in her face. Was surprised to see him at Imaginate with her there, though Bailey's probably the one who asked him to go.

For me at least, if the intent behind an act is selfish, good results don't automatically make that person good. This is why people think Dragon is just as bad. I don't think many people think she's manipulated Sabrina/Tarot.

I could hug you!

[Roarin]

Tag team!
Marvel vs Capcom style.

[Obbl]

All of a sudden, it feels that she actually 'helped' King go to Heaven so to keep him away and not be the third party who could be of relief to HIS WIFE.

Pete took Bailey to the other side of the world, and left him there. There was never any realistic way he was going to get there on his own. And while they could have given King a teleporter or something, neither you nor I actually know the reasons why they did not. So speculation on how terrible their reasons might have been kinda starts to grate on me.

What if King is right and whatever the result his marriage is irrimediably compromised?

I'm pretty sure that was put there to show that King is overly worrying about this (with good reason, yes, but still over worrying). King will "move heaven and earth to get to [her]", and Bailey is doing this whole thing out of her love for King. "Those who of love and fury intercede for another may themselves take on the power of the White Avenger." And while the strain of all of this is certainly trying on both of them, at the end this can only make their love stronger.

If a game has, as direct consequence, the suffering of any part involved, ...then I think it can be taken quite seriously.

I actually agree with you, but here's the difference for me. You seem to be assuming that because this might cause serious suffering for the mortals, it is completely bad. But if the mortals play the game as if it is just that - a game - they can come out of this on top. And so far, Tarot and Sabrina seem to be playing this as a game, and Bailey's been doing pretty much the same since she got here. King is the only one who's really been taking this poorly. And that's pretty much his and Pete's fault.

Dragon somehow manipulated things so that Peanut and Grape would both fall in love and therefore Pete lost them as avatars.

Where was this ever stated? Peanut had a crush on Grape naturally, but because Grape hadn't fully accepted Peanut, Tarot came over. Grape and Max also got together naturally. And Tarot and Peanut, though put together by design, have developed feelings for each other naturally. So the only couple who is together because of "selfish intent" is Tarot and Peanut (and probably Sabrina and Fido, but I don't think you're likely to get a complaint out of them).

[Argent]

I'm pretty sure that was put there to show that King is overly worrying about this (with good reason, yes, but still over worrying). King will "move heaven and earth to get to [her]", and Bailey is doing this whole thing out of her love for King. "Those who of love and fury intercede for another may themselves take on the power of the White Avenger." And while the strain of all of this is certainly trying on both of them, at the end this can only make their love stronger.

OK, I can see this leading to King showing up as a second White Avenger.

[deepskycyan]

Are those wands/scepters Sab's wielding?

Because they looks like a golf tees.

[Obbl]

I'm pretty sure she was stopping herself from saying "I still love him", hence the reaction from Pete and Kitsune

[valerio]

I'm pretty sure she was stopping herself from saying "I still love him", hence the reaction from Pete and Kitsune

yup, true dat. Too.

[valerio]

LOLTIME!

[GameCobra]

You guys and girls have been really theorycrafting these past two days, huh? =P

"You need to break up with him and be Joey's girlfriend now since that's Pete's new choice!"

"...I QUIT!"

"Nevermind. Start dating Bino. I hear he's the new likely candidate."
*Tarot goes green-eyed monster. Moreso than usual.*

I use to worry about this, and some part of me still worries about this. The Gallifrax protocol mostly snuffed that out, but that could be because Tarot is acting more professional about the game than even Dragon, which I would say would be interesting.

[ConvoyWolf]

Im bowing out of this arguememt over the extent of Tarot and Sab's guilt in all this. Its emotionally tiring and i lack the strength to continue. 8 more hours and we can start on something else.

[exranio]

Only if the worst thing she's done is get a few people to fall in love, and just generally ignore king. She still doesn't bad to me at all really. I still feel she's been overall represented as a good guy.

[Dissension]

Of course, Pete is also a good guy, in the scheme of things.

[Ryusuta]

Of course, Pete is also a good guy, in the scheme of things.

Keep saying that, Diss, and maybe one day it'll be true. =)

[WhoElseButQuagmire]

Of course, Pete is also a good guy, in the scheme of things.

I wonder...did Pete start the whole ball rolling by influencing Joel and his partner to venture into Babylon Gardens in the first place, or did he just step in once Joel was arrested.

[YourRoyalCorginess]

I'm just wondering if Pete has an ace up his sleeve like say, a spell or similar action that can turn damage sustained into increased attack.

There is also the possibility to Sasha being involved on Bailey's side.

Only if the worst thing she's done is get a few people to fall in love, and just generally ignore king. She still doesn't bad to me at all really. I still feel she's been overall represented as a good guy.

Uh we are talking about the one who wanted to annihilate the planet and destroy her own avatars to win. Even Pete never wanted to go that far.


Mod Edit: Do not double post. Use the edit button if you have more to say and yours is the latest post

[RandomGeekNamedBrent]

Only if the worst thing she's done is get a few people to fall in love, and just generally ignore king. She still doesn't bad to me at all really. I still feel she's been overall represented as a good guy.

Uh we are talking about the one who wanted to annihilate the planet and destroy her own avatars to win. Even Pete never wanted to go that far.

actually, she just wanted to modify a spell to cause damage. The exploding planet was a side-effect she wasn't aware of until Kitsune told her.