Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

IceKitsune · Post by **IceKitsune** » Fri May 25, 2012 2:23 pm

rickgriffin wrote:But there isn't anything I can do for the celestials which will make them *likable* if your definition of likable is making everything easy one everyone they can. That's not what they do; they ARE going to come across as jerks from a certain perspective and that is partly the point; sometimes the bigger picture seems cruel, but my point is that doesn't mean that the basis for cruelty is often untenable circumstances.

And besides, the only real crime here is that Dragon has been a better player than Pete. If THAT is what makes her a jerk then I'm not sure what she should be doing--throw the game? Does that make her nice?

I've said ever since Dog Days that they are playing a game and the game isn't always "nice" to mortals (even though Kitsune would prefer to be). I can't exactly take that back because anything less would make the game defanged and sorta pointless. That people don't LIKE the connotations of this plot is difficult to reconcile. Is it because I'm just not out and saying "these are the badguys, these are the goodguys"? Would that make people happier?

About the only thing you could to make People happy is to write the Nerds out, drop the whole Game story line and pretend it just never happened. Which you shouldn't do because its your comic and you can do what you want with it. Your just going to have to live with the fact that most of the people that read this comic either hate the story line or hate the Nerds, or both in a lot of cases.

valerio · Post by **valerio** » Fri May 25, 2012 2:25 pm

Nah.
It's just that...well, now so many innocent lives are dancing at the rhythm of a bunch of petty players engaged in a duel born out of boredom. Why care for a character if his/her fate was already set/manipulated by someone like the higher beings, and in fact is still manipulated? It makes the comic seem defanged.

Post by **rickgriffin** » Fri May 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Because the game is not *all* that's going to happen to the characters. People seem to get panicky when I mention the universe is too big, like it makes the smaller matter not actually matter.

valerio · Post by **valerio** » Fri May 25, 2012 2:48 pm

But the most important turns of their life *are* part of the game...or it is suggested that there is a degree of manipulation past, present and future.
King is the only one who, despite being forced into the game, managed (by chance and rules and his absurd stubborness) to become an independent party.
The grapenut could come to be or not according to the gamers' will.
Same for Grapewell.
We can take for (almost) granted that Fido has been manipulated into loving Sabrina to get him out of Pete's Clutch
Zach has become the involuntary head of a cult that may not see any golden age for them (SADFACE)
And I shiver at the thought that Bailey could be involved as part of the game to nudge King in a direction.
And not for their benefit , but for some game rule.
Way to kill the fun!

IceKitsune · Post by **IceKitsune** » Fri May 25, 2012 2:51 pm

Well I guess there would be another way to make everyone happy (but it would anger them in the short term) if the Nerds story line is not the Endgame storyline for the comic itself, you could always fast track it. End it as quickly as possible and just get rid of the whole thing that way.

Post by **rickgriffin** » Fri May 25, 2012 2:57 pm

valerio wrote:But the most important turns of their life *are* part of the game...or it is suggested that there is a degree of manipulation past, present and future.
King is the only one who, despite being forced into the game, managed (by chance and rules and his absurd stubborness) to become an independent party.
The grapenut could come to be or not according to the gamers' will.
Same for Grapewell.
We can take for (almost) granted that Fido has been manipulated into loving Sabrina to get him out of Pete's Clutch
Zach has become the involuntary head of a cult that may not see any golden age for them (SADFACE)
And I shiver at the thought that Bailey could be involved as part of the game to nudge King in a direction.
And not for their benefit , but for some game rule.
Way to kill the fun!

What, do you think that people are fully in charge of the direction of their lives? It seems ridiculous that relationships occuring as a result of matchmaking must inherently be suspect. What matters in a relationship, the circumstances that caused events to fall into place that two people get together, or that if they have genuine feeling for each other? Because in order for *any of this* to work, the second part can't merely be faked, and you seem to think that these situations can't occur unless something ingenuine is introduced.

EDIT: *sigh* whatever, if you don't agree with the way I frame the cosmology, that's one thing, but I'm not just going to drop it in order to make it all fuzzy and nice. I *want* it there so that I can play the bigger plots off it because I find it fun and interesting.

Foxstar · Post by **Foxstar** » Fri May 25, 2012 3:42 pm

I'm enjoying the current arc and don't have a single problem with it. Maybe it's because my issues have already been addressed. Or maybe because it's a freaking funny animal cartoon and i'm not insanely devoted to it.

valerio · Post by **valerio** » Fri May 25, 2012 3:47 pm

rickgriffin wrote:What, do you think that people are fully in charge of the direction of their lives? It seems ridiculous that relationships occuring as a result of matchmaking must inherently be suspect. What matters in a relationship, the circumstances that caused events to fall into place that two people get together, or that if they have genuine feeling for each other? Because in order for *any of this* to work, the second part can't merely be faked, and you seem to think that these situations can't occur unless something ingenuine is introduced.

It matters to me that the relation should be divinity-free.
How am I to know that those same cosmic matchmakers won't arbitrarily change those characters' lives again for their fun instead of truly respecting their freedom on the matter? We're being told that many of the roots in this comic are the nearest thing to a fake. Sorry, to me it's like a sword hanging over their lives, don't like it.
Oh, yes, and I am totally insane of course.

Gren · Post by **Gren** » Fri May 25, 2012 3:48 pm

OMG this is the best arc evar! I don't understand you guys, you going mad only for the shipping thing? It's the only thing that matters for all of you? shame on you!
So tell me, you prefer that all of them end together for such ridiculous thing like destiny? It's so predictable and cliché. I think that this twist is a lot better. Think about it. Sooner or later they have to know what was Pete and SD made to them, and this could cause panic between them. Then they'll have to meditate if their love is true or not and for sure this going to generate conflict. They'll have to make a decision: accept their actual feelings and what was happening with all of this game, even if the gods were playing with them, or fight against this and join to the opposing side. With this the central characters could have a better participation in this plot instead of stay aside. They'll have to fight themselves and who was supposed to loved, with this they going to confirm if their feelings are real or not and the true ships triumph at the end (concluding all the love triangle and taboo issues). At least this is the theory that I can made with this last comic for now.

Come on guys, let Rick work in peace, he's doing really good until now. We haven't even seen the SD point of view, and yet all of this Pete's story still a little blurry. I suggest to wait until the end of this arc to do a better objective critic. However I'm nothing to say you to not complain, but at least don't do it so LOUD XD (just kidding

)

I'm still wonder what paper play Keene and Karishad in all of this... and if the temple of Milton's backyard belongs to SD

Ratros · Post by **Ratros** » Fri May 25, 2012 3:51 pm

Wow...I never thought I'd see people complain about yet also seemingly enjoy a story arc so much. In my opinion, Rick should keep the story as is. It's deep, has amazing plot twists that go along with the characters, and most of all is a complete joy to read. Though I am confused how people can't seem to understand the gaming terminology....am I really that big of a nerd?

But I can't wait to see how victory is achieved in this contest, what started it in the first place (I'm betting Pete stole Dragons favorite barbie doll), and Dragon's side to the story. Also as far as Higher Beings go, I'd say that Pete and Dragon are the norm.

valerio wrote:
rickgriffin wrote:What, do you think that people are fully in charge of the direction of their lives? It seems ridiculous that relationships occuring as a result of matchmaking must inherently be suspect. What matters in a relationship, the circumstances that caused events to fall into place that two people get together, or that if they have genuine feeling for each other? Because in order for *any of this* to work, the second part can't merely be faked, and you seem to think that these situations can't occur unless something ingenuine is introduced.
It matters to me that the relation should be divinity-free.
How am I to know that those same cosmic matchmakers won't arbitrarily change those characters' lives again for their fun instead of truly respecting their freedom on the matter? We're being told that many of the roots in this comic are the nearest thing to a fake. Sorry, to me it's like a sword hanging over their lives, don't like it.
Oh, yes, and I am totally insane of course.

Divine Beings really don't care for the lesser beings feelings on a given matter. If they want something to happen, it's gonna happen, regardless of what anyone else thinks...going by the norm that is. Might be a bit different in Housepets universe.

Post by **Obbl** » Fri May 25, 2012 3:58 pm

I think people are having a hard time with manipulation vs free will.

Tarot went to Peanut because Dragon asked her to. Peanut fell in love of his own free will. If Tarot is in love with Peanut (as previous strips suggest) that was her free will too.
If Sabrina was sent to Fido, the fact that they both love each other (as it certainly seems to be) that was their free will too.

Just because the circumstances that brought the individuals together were not completely random does not mean free will was not involved. It's the same as people playing matchmaker here on earth. Sometimes an outside party brings two people together (at some social event or what have you) and they happen to take a real shine to each other. Does the fact that they were brought together invalidate their love? No.

The fact that Dragon tried to set this up (and succeeded) in order to prevent Pete from getting an easy avatar is part of the meta game. However, good has come of it. Just because comic beings are involved does not invalidate the choices of the players. As far as I can tell, Dragon can't even make Tarot do something she does not want to do.

No events have changed. But people are not liking that the reasons behind them changed, even though we've known since the beginning that Tarot came to Peanut because the "spirits" told her to. So actually nothing has changed. (Except with Fido and Sabrina, but they're so cute together I don't see how it matters why they were brought together

)

King is also an interesting manipulation, but again, we've known since the beginning that it was a manipulation by Pete for some reasons which we eventually came to learn had to do with avatars and U&U. This arc has changed very little with our heroes on earth. It mostly informs us on the background behind the Cosmic Nerds' story.

In short: I don't get why everyone's in an uproar over this.

Gren · Post by **Gren** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:10 pm

rickgriffin wrote: What, do you think that people are fully in charge of the direction of their lives? It seems ridiculous that relationships occuring as a result of matchmaking must inherently be suspect. What matters in a relationship, the circumstances that caused events to fall into place that two people get together, or that if they have genuine feeling for each other? Because in order for *any of this* to work, the second part can't merely be faked, and you seem to think that these situations can't occur unless something ingenuine is introduced.

AMEN TO THAT! Come on people, haven't heard about Cupid? In all ancient mitology (specially the greek) the gods always mess with mortals life, and I always loved this stories. Like Rick said, what if a god put them togheter? what really matters is the true feeling that they have. I thinks this is alike that when a friend introduce you to a friend of his girlfriend or similar situations, others can interfere, it's not always destiny or first sight love, but what really matter is the true love their feel between them.

Liam · Post by **Liam** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:19 pm

Rick, please don't misunderstand me, I still think HP's one of the best webcomics I ever read (and furry comics anyway) and I don't want to appear as an unpleasable, whiny fanboy, but nevertheless I also think this Cosmic Nerd complex negatively affects the comic.

This Byzantine, semi-Lovecratian cosmology burdens the primarily light-hearted, character-driven narrative in my eyes.

Why semi-Lovecratian? You said these kinda-deities care next to nil about mortals and their issues. They may not directly interfere with the free will of people, but they're shown to manipulate and literally play with their lives. Case in point, Joan of Faux may not have suffered the exact same fate as her inspiration, but that's the point. She suffered. And that not too little by the looks of it. A whining god doesn't really imply anything but a violent death. She and everybody else may be reincarnated according to your cosmology, but that only means suffering never stops and becomes astronomical. What stops her from becoming a plaything of a CN in the next universe or getting tortured and slaughtered by another celestial for pure amusement and in compliance with their "no brainwashing" rules?

I know, in all likelihood you won't ever actually show something like that. The mere implications are totally at odds with the rest of the comic, however.

As far as I can see HP's verse is Like Reality Unless Noted, so where were they during all the wars and conflicts initiated by dispute over the true nature of reality? Even assuming that they don't behave like Lovecraft's Outer Gods, they're horrifyingly uncaring, negligent on a Gnostic level.

The latest strip's info makes matters even worse. The pervasive manipulation of the cast's friend- and relationships cheapens said interactions and by extension the characters. That's poisonous for a work that's driven by the selfsame chars.

And all that just because those things want to alleviate the boredom infinity and omnipotence gives them by imposing a D&D game on a myriad of innocent existences? The expressions "unrelatable", "petty" and "stark existential horror" come to mind.

Given that it looks like you planned the CN plotline from the very beginning of the comic it makes me think you're quite invested in this facet of your verse, but I hope I could put forth valid arguments of why this specific one is to HP's detriment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going fandumb and try to force you into letting me write the script from now on. (Not that I have the right to dictate you anything at all, anyway.) I'm just saying it would be better to focus on the lives of street-level chars again. Back to the roots, if you want.

That sound good?

EDIT: Lol, I started to write this half an eternity ago (hey, Spartacus is on TV

) and in the meanwhile Valerio has elaborated on what he said earlier and is pretty much the same thing I had intended to say...

angelusbr · Post by **angelusbr** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:21 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong: But when the dragon tried to make a tarotnut ship, did she mind controlled peanut or even Max and Grape? did Tarot offered herself as a friend who soon begun to be Peanut's girlfriend with his consent, which made Grape somewhat jealous (because she was kinda alone in a house with two dogs) which made her fall for Max. As long as nobody's free will was damaged, I guess I'm okay with it. For example, if peanut wanted he could have said "get out of here! My heart is 100% Grape's! S2!"
Or am I wrong?

valerio · Post by **valerio** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:23 pm

*bows*
Liam, you put it exactly as I wanted to say it... but with a great injection of higher culture

GameCobra · Post by **GameCobra** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:38 pm

Liam wrote:Rick, please don't misunderstand me, I still think HP's one of the best webcomics I ever read (and furry comics anyway) and I don't want to appear as an unpleasable, whiny fanboy, but nevertheless I also think this Cosmic Nerd complex negatively affects the comic.

This Byzantine, semi-Lovecratian cosmology burdens the primarily light-hearted, character-driven narrative in my eyes.

Why semi-Lovecratian? You said these kinda-deities care next to nil about mortals and their issues. They may not directly interfere with the free will of people, but they're shown to manipulate and literally play with their lives. Case in point, Joan of Faux may not have suffered the exact same fate as her inspiration, but that's the point. She suffered. And that not too little by the looks of it. A whining god doesn't really imply anything but a violent death. She and everybody else may be reincarnated according to your cosmology, but that only means suffering never stops and becomes astronomical. What stops her from becoming a plaything of a CN in the next universe or getting tortured and slaughtered by another celestial for pure amusement and in compliance with their "no brainwashing" rules?

I know, in all likelihood you won't ever actually show something like that. The mere implications are totally at odds with the rest of the comic, however.

As far as I can see HP's verse is Like Reality Unless Noted, so where were they during all the wars and conflicts initiated by dispute over the true nature of reality? Even assuming that they don't behave like Lovecraft's Outer Gods, they're horrifyingly uncaring, negligent on a Gnostic level.

The latest strip's info makes matters even worse. The pervasive manipulation of the cast's friend- and relationships cheapens said interactions and by extension the characters. That's poisonous for a work that's driven by the selfsame chars.

And all that just because those things want to alleviate the boredom infinity and omnipotence gives them by imposing a D&D game on a myriad of innocent existences? The expressions "unrelatable", "petty" and "stark existential horror" come to mind.

Given that it looks like you planned the CN plotline from the very beginning of the comic it makes me think you're quite invested in this facet of your verse, but I hope I could put forth valid arguments of why this specific one is to HP's detriment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going fandumb and try to force you into letting me write the script from now on. (Not that I have the right to dictate you anything at all, anyway.) I'm just saying it would be better to focus on the lives of street-level chars again. Back to the roots, if you want.

That sound good?

EDIT: Lol, I started to write this half an eternity ago (hey, Spartacus is on TV ) and in the meanwhile Valerio has elaborated on what he said earlier and is pretty much the same thing I had intended to say...

What I don't get though is why Divine Intervention seems like a big deal in the comic? It's not bad. It's actually a pretty good case of divine favorism, which i don't have an argument about, honestly. As far as i see it, it's enjoyable to see what the gods think of the mortal pets, they even act like the pets themselves, but in a god-like version. heck, even Pete and Dragon are acting like the housepets crew in a similar fashion, just more Joey-ish.

PhoenixAsper · Post by **PhoenixAsper** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:42 pm

Wow. Lot's of MAJOR reaction, as to be expected. Here's what mindset I was in this morning:

<sigh>

Finally, the truth.

And the truth is that a lot of it is a lie. Milton's dream for human/animal equalization, the prophecy I waited for a long time to see fulfilled, perhaps even Joel's supposed redemption and multiple relationships in this comic: at best a misdirection or manipulation, at worst, a dang lie. And all because two celestial jerks want to have their fun. They likely either don't care or have no idea what kind of damage they've done or will do. With this, I feel like declaring war on them both.

It's all been a big GAME to them, never mind what kind of hopes and dreams they build up and prove to be false!

And yes, the whole shipping armada just sailed into a minefield. ~~Whether it's interesting or not, the cosmic matchmaking thing is just WRONG.~~ EDIT: Retracted. I now think it's more that the celestials can only say something like "hey, I think you'd like this guy/girl, why don't you go and say hi", not "Marry them or PERISH!". Tarot skirted that line, but didn't cross it, far as I can tell. No one is FORCING them to love anyone.

I'm still kind of in this mindset. I think that celestials of made-up universes should have a RESPONSIBILITY towards the lives of mortals, not this sort of thing! This really is like Babylon 5, with Pete and SD playing the part of the Shadows and Vorlons.

All I ever wanted out of this storyline and its sub-threads was for King to find redemption by keeping Fox as a friend or by returning to being Joel and living a HAPPY life. I don't know what to think anymore.

I suddenly am feeling paranoia of the death of this comic approaching, either because this discussion could tear it apart, or Rick would get fed up with sharing it with a lot of people who can't handle it the way sane people should, of which I am equally guilty. Goodness, I really hope I'm WRONG.

Foxstar · Post by **Foxstar** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:43 pm

What I don't get is that Rick has been focusing on 'the roots' of the characters for a long time now. What your saying Liam boils down to. "I don't like it, I only liked it when it was about funny animals and the funny stuff they do."

PhoenixAsper · Post by **PhoenixAsper** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:44 pm

Foxstar wrote:What I don't get is that Rick has been focusing on 'the roots' of the characters for a long time now. What your saying Liam boils down to. "I don't like it, I only liked it when it was about funny animals and the funny stuff they do."

That's precisely it. That's the kind of comic I thought this was supposed to be, and what it would always be.

Post by **Obbl** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:48 pm

Wow. I think we have a case of a bunch of people missing something.

You all act like the divine peoples suddenly invalidate all characters on earth. Whoop! There they go, life is meaningless. Everything you do is all a lie. No meaning, what's the point?

Except the characters are still making their own choices and still doing their own things. There's a little pushing and prodding from the Cosmic Nerds to achieve the goals of their game, but the mortals still choose who to love and how the relationships work. Same with the rest of their lives.

Post by **rickgriffin** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:49 pm

Liam wrote:Rick, please don't misunderstand me, I still think HP's one of the best webcomics I ever read (and furry comics anyway) and I don't want to appear as an unpleasable, whiny fanboy, but nevertheless I also think this Cosmic Nerd complex negatively affects the comic.

This Byzantine, semi-Lovecratian cosmology burdens the primarily light-hearted, character-driven narrative in my eyes.

Why semi-Lovecratian? You said these kinda-deities care next to nil about mortals and their issues. They may not directly interfere with the free will of people, but they're shown to manipulate and literally play with their lives. Case in point, Joan of Faux may not have suffered the exact same fate as her inspiration, but that's the point. She suffered. And that not too little by the looks of it. A whining god doesn't really imply anything but a violent death. She and everybody else may be reincarnated according to your cosmology, but that only means suffering never stops and becomes astronomical. What stops her from becoming a plaything of a CN in the next universe or getting tortured and slaughtered by another celestial for pure amusement and in compliance with their "no brainwashing" rules?

I know, in all likelihood you won't ever actually show something like that. The mere implications are totally at odds with the rest of the comic, however.

As far as I can see HP's verse is Like Reality Unless Noted, so where were they during all the wars and conflicts initiated by dispute over the true nature of reality? Even assuming that they don't behave like Lovecraft's Outer Gods, they're horrifyingly uncaring, negligent on a Gnostic level.

The latest strip's info makes matters even worse. The pervasive manipulation of the cast's friend- and relationships cheapens said interactions and by extension the characters. That's poisonous for a work that's driven by the selfsame chars.

And all that just because those things want to alleviate the boredom infinity and omnipotence gives them by imposing a D&D game on a myriad of innocent existences? The expressions "unrelatable", "petty" and "stark existential horror" come to mind.

Given that it looks like you planned the CN plotline from the very beginning of the comic it makes me think you're quite invested in this facet of your verse, but I hope I could put forth valid arguments of why this specific one is to HP's detriment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going fandumb and try to force you into letting me write the script from now on. (Not that I have the right to dictate you anything at all, anyway.) I'm just saying it would be better to focus on the lives of street-level chars again. Back to the roots, if you want.

That sound good?

EDIT: Lol, I started to write this half an eternity ago (hey, Spartacus is on TV ) and in the meanwhile Valerio has elaborated on what he said earlier and is pretty much the same thing I had intended to say...

But that IS what I do for 90% of the comic . . . quite literally. But I like poking at the edges too much. I LIKE making the outside world sound uncomfortable and problematic. I want some characters to have problems they can't control, because if I do not then it devolves into purposelessness.

"Light-hearted character-driven narrative" is a consequence of the approach I took to making this comic. It's not *negated* by the presence of other stories I want to tell in the universe (or out of it) but what's being said is that because I don't make the universe the exact same tone that is presented in the comic's main narrative, I'm undermining it.

I've heard it before--that it's awful that I don't excuse the food chain (or even change it) in light of all megafauna being sapient. That the pets in Babylon Gardens are in the scope of the entire world extremely fortunate. That sometimes people suffer and die. I'm supposed to throw all that out the window SO THAT I can tell the cute fun stories.

I did not make this comic to be pure fluff, it was never intended to be fluff. I might have told a story that was a bit more relevant to the world at hand--and I plan to--but I went with this because I started going this way and I decided to keep on going this way because it gave weight to situations that otherwise were ultimately of no consequence. Maybe I made it, maybe I failed, but I'm always experimenting with the way a story is told and presented. I'm not done.

valerio · Post by **valerio** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:50 pm

Foxstar wrote:What I don't get is that Rick has been focusing on 'the roots' of the characters for a long time now. What your saying Liam boils down to. "I don't like it, I only liked it when it was about funny animals and the funny stuff they do."

no.
that would be definitely reductive!
I love this comic because it has it ALL, from the funny stuff to the emotional stuff, social problems, interactions, fine plots...everything.
But the cosmic nerds should not belong. Babylon Gardens' affairs were being led as good as it was so far. The game is making the characters' lives seem moot now.

IceKitsune · Post by **IceKitsune** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:51 pm

The thing is The Cosmic Nerds are not Gods I've always seen them as basically this comics version of the Celestials from Marvel comics (or as Liam said HP Lovecraft gods), except of messing with genes and life in general they mess with relationships. And the two groups reasons are about the same level in terms of justification which is basically none at all.

Foxstar · Post by **Foxstar** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:53 pm

PhoenixAsper wrote:
Foxstar wrote:What I don't get is that Rick has been focusing on 'the roots' of the characters for a long time now. What your saying Liam boils down to. "I don't like it, I only liked it when it was about funny animals and the funny stuff they do."
That's precisely it. That's the kind of comic I thought this was supposed to be, and what it would always be.

That's nobody's fault but your own and the very reason why I've directly questioned your over devotion to a three time a week webcomic. Everything's fine right up to the point the writer/artist/guybehind it does something you don't care for and then it sucks.

PhoenixAsper · Post by **PhoenixAsper** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:54 pm

Foxstar wrote:
PhoenixAsper wrote:
Foxstar wrote:What I don't get is that Rick has been focusing on 'the roots' of the characters for a long time now. What your saying Liam boils down to. "I don't like it, I only liked it when it was about funny animals and the funny stuff they do."
That's precisely it. That's the kind of comic I thought this was supposed to be, and what it would always be.
That's nobody's fault but your own and the very reason why I've directly questioned your over devotion to a three time a week webcomic. Everything's fine right up to the point the writer/artist/guybehind it does something you don't care for and then it sucks.

No, you're right. I just could have used that heads-up from the start, rather than believing it was going to be something it wasn't. I wasn't READY for all of this, and it hurt.

JeffCvt · Post by **JeffCvt** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:56 pm

valerio wrote:I love this comic because it has it ALL, from the funny stuff to the emotional stuff, social problems, interactions, fine plots...everything.

I agree with this. This is probably my favorite comic because it has everything in it.

valerio wrote:But the cosmic nerds should not belong. Babylon Gardens' affairs were being led as good as it was so far. The game is making the characters' lives seem moot now.

But this I disagree with. The cosmic nerds game gives something to follow in the comic.
There are some comics that I have read that have nothing to really follow along, and they just get extremely repetitive for me. This is the only comic that I seriously would get upset over if it stopped, and the cosmic nerds are a big part of that.

valerio · Post by **valerio** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:00 pm

dunno how could you say that (hey, nothing personal here, honest!)
After all this time, I still find each strip as exciting as the first, the proof that Rick makes an excellent narrator.
He just chose to mix in this cosmic aspect that is frankly out of place.

Post by **Obbl** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:00 pm

How are the characters' lives moot just because the Cosmic guys can mix things up here and there? If anything this provides for a wide range of story lines driven by the machinations of the cosmos while our heroes have to figure out what to do. But Rick hasn't even taken that far, and everyone's already complaining.

Next arc we'll likely be back to funny furry characters and their antics and nothing will have changed. Why are we worried?

GameCobra · Post by **GameCobra** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:10 pm

Obbl wrote:How are the characters' lives moot just because the Cosmic guys can mix things up here and there? If anything this provides for a wide range of story lines driven by the machinations of the cosmos while our heroes have to figure out what to do. But Rick hasn't even taken that far, and everyone's already complaining.

Next arc we'll likely be back to funny furry characters and their antics and nothing will have changed. Why are we worried?

Precisely my point. They aren't forcing the characters to do what they are already doing right now, so it's not a serious issue here.

JeffCvt · Post by **JeffCvt** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:12 pm

valerio wrote:dunno how could you say that (hey, nothing personal here, honest!)
After all this time, I still find each strip as exciting as the first, the proof that Rick makes an excellent narrator.
He just chose to mix in this cosmic aspect that is frankly out of place.

I'm not saying that the strips aren't exciting, but if it was just "funny furry characters" arc after arc, I would eventually become bored.
I'm interested about what is going to happen with the game, and I feel Rick has done a good job of putting it in and keeping it funny at the same time.

While I'm not saying that it isn't "out of place," something like this helps to keep my interest. If I can start reading from any point in the archives and not need to know something from the past, I just don't think it would be worth reading.

That's just my personal preference though.

Sinder · Post by **Sinder** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:13 pm

the amount of wangst coming from you guys is unbelievable

sit back, let the artist art, and enjoy the ride

IceKitsune · Post by **IceKitsune** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:13 pm

You know what this comes down to basically do you think that Higher Power beings have the right to interfere with Mortal Lives or Not. Both sides are not going to budge on this issue.

Foxstar · Post by **Foxstar** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:18 pm

IceKitsune wrote:You know what this comes down to basically do you think that Higher Power beings have the right to interfere with Mortal Lives or Not. Both sides are not going to budge on this issue.

If we get into the subject of "I believe/don't believe in God", things are going to end very poorly. So let's not.

I'm of a mind that till Housepets is done. I'm not going to make a judgement call. I also feel that it's not my comic and as the reader, I should have a little faith that the guy behind it knows what he's doing.

ChewyChewy · Post by **ChewyChewy** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:19 pm

rickgriffin wrote:Because the game is not *all* that's going to happen to the characters. People seem to get panicky when I mention the universe is too big, like it makes the smaller matter not actually matter.

I think that's most people's problem right there--it was my problem for awhile, and I'm not entirely sure if I've come to terms with it even yet, but I'm trying.

When you start looking at the universe from that big of a perspective, to where you make characters equal to the mortal cast of the players, your audience has to mentally and emotionally "shift gears" each time you go back and forth. This arc in particular is making the Cosmic Nerds equals as characters to the mortal cast. I mean, would The Lord of the Rings have been the same if we'd seen what the Valar were doing all that time? J. R. R. Tolkien deliberately left some things a mystery, because that's how it is in real life. If the Valar had been as approachable as the Cosmic Nerds (people who play role-playing games can identify with the latter), that would have made it hard to care about little Hobbits wandering Middle-earth no matter what their objective actually was.

IceKitsune · Post by **IceKitsune** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:20 pm

Foxstar wrote:
IceKitsune wrote:You know what this comes down to basically do you think that Higher Power beings have the right to interfere with Mortal Lives or Not. Both sides are not going to budge on this issue.
If we get into the subject of "I believe/don't believe in God", things are going to end very poorly. So let's not.

That's not at all what I was asking though but yes lets not go there.

JeffCvt · Post by **JeffCvt** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:21 pm

Foxstar wrote:I also feel that it's not my comic and as the reader, I should have a little faith that the guy behind it knows what he's doing.

That's exactly how I feel. Let Rick do as he wants, he knows what he's doing.

That's why I don't like to get involved in a lot of these conversations.

valerio · Post by **valerio** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:21 pm

amen to that.

EDIT - about what foxstar said

Liam · Post by **Liam** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:23 pm

rickgriffin wrote:But that IS what I do for 90% of the comic . . . quite literally. But I like poking at the edges too much. I LIKE making the outside world sound uncomfortable and problematic. I want some characters to have problems they can't control, because if I do not then it devolves into purposelessness.

"Light-hearted character-driven narrative" is a consequence of the approach I took to making this comic. It's not *negated* by the presence of other stories I want to tell in the universe (or out of it) but what's being said is that because I don't make the universe the exact same tone that is presented in the comic's main narrative, I'm undermining it.

I've heard it before--that it's awful that I don't excuse the food chain (or even change it) in light of all megafauna being sapient. That the pets in Babylon Gardens are in the scope of the entire world extremely fortunate. That sometimes people suffer and die. I'm supposed to throw all that out the window SO THAT I can tell the cute fun stories.

I did not make this comic to be pure fluff, it was never intended to be fluff. I might have told a story that was a bit more relevant to the world at hand--and I plan to--but I went with this because I started going this way and I decided to keep on going this way because it gave weight to situations that otherwise were ultimately of no consequence. Maybe I made it, maybe I failed, but I'm always experimenting with the way a story is told and presented. I'm not done.

I had no problem with your chars being threatened to be eaten by a crocodile or murdered by PETA. This kind of suffering gels with the world you depicted because you established this aspect early on and, more importantly, nicely organic.

But the amounts of suffering implied here don't. They're excessive and the given reasons are at best aggravating. The revelations don't get conveyed all that organically either and hit us like a sledgehammer.

Not that I want you to make them arrive at the conclusion "Oh, we're kind of transcendent forces of evil; reality would be better without us all things considered" and have them retcon themselves out of existence.

Just, dunno. Relativize their influence over mundanes?

Post by **rickgriffin** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:25 pm

Liam wrote:
rickgriffin wrote:But that IS what I do for 90% of the comic . . . quite literally. But I like poking at the edges too much. I LIKE making the outside world sound uncomfortable and problematic. I want some characters to have problems they can't control, because if I do not then it devolves into purposelessness.

"Light-hearted character-driven narrative" is a consequence of the approach I took to making this comic. It's not *negated* by the presence of other stories I want to tell in the universe (or out of it) but what's being said is that because I don't make the universe the exact same tone that is presented in the comic's main narrative, I'm undermining it.

I've heard it before--that it's awful that I don't excuse the food chain (or even change it) in light of all megafauna being sapient. That the pets in Babylon Gardens are in the scope of the entire world extremely fortunate. That sometimes people suffer and die. I'm supposed to throw all that out the window SO THAT I can tell the cute fun stories.

I did not make this comic to be pure fluff, it was never intended to be fluff. I might have told a story that was a bit more relevant to the world at hand--and I plan to--but I went with this because I started going this way and I decided to keep on going this way because it gave weight to situations that otherwise were ultimately of no consequence. Maybe I made it, maybe I failed, but I'm always experimenting with the way a story is told and presented. I'm not done.
I had no problem with your chars being threatened to be eaten by a crocodile or murdered by PETA. This kind of suffering gels with the world you depicted because you established this aspect early on and, more importantly, nicely organic.

But the amounts of suffering implied here don't. They're excessive and the given reasons are at best aggravating. The revelations don't get conveyed all that organically either and hit us like a sledgehammer.

Not that I want you to make them arrive at the conclusion "Oh, we're kind of transcendent forces of evil; reality would be better without us all things considered" and have them retcon themselves out of existence.

Just, dunno. Relativize their influence over mundanes?

But the entire reason I'm doing this arc in the first place is so I can get it out of the way so that I CAN do that without everyone still not knowing what the crap the celestials are TRYING to do.

Liam · Post by **Liam** » Fri May 25, 2012 5:36 pm

rickgriffin wrote:But the entire reason I'm doing this arc in the first place is so I can get it out of the way so that I CAN do that without everyone still not knowing what the crap the celestials are TRYING to do.

Oh, okay. Why didn't you say that earlier? :V

But seriously, can you rig the game insofar that the Heaven dwellers are explicitly stated to be not omniscient and omnipotent? That they can only manipulate muggles through U&U under strict rules that make sure they're collectively and permanently unable to prevent tragedies like the World Wars?

That's the crucial point that threatens the comic's quality and creative integrity.