Superhero comics destroy comics

[Liam]

David Lillie, one of the creators of the Dreamkeepers comics, wrote articles upon the main enemy of the comic: the Big Four's superhero comics.

http://vividstuff.blogspot.com/2008/12/ ... edium.html

http://vividstuff.blogspot.com/2008/12/ ... ction.html

http://vividstuff.blogspot.com/2008/12/ ... y-aka.html

http://vividstuff.blogspot.com/2009/01/ ... ution.html

For the one's who is this too tl;dr, the general gist is that the Big Four (Disney International Corporation Limited Sub-Division Funny Picture Sequences Telling Stories #05 Formerly Known As Marvel Comics, Detective Comics Comics, Rob Liefeld's Eternal Legacy Comics and Durphurp Comics) don't give a crap about the quality of their products for decades because they make enough money through licensing, so of course creativity has grinded to a halt leading to the sorry state that every single non-extraneous franchise comic they publish is essentially one and the same superhero story repeated ad infinitum for an ever-dwindling number of guys who actually buy these comics (what is totally negligible, since Licensing = Craploads o' Money is still in effect).

Due to that the image of comics being childish, formulaic, lurid crapsola about freaks in quizzically hued underwear got burned into the heads of people, thus marginalizing comics as a whole.

Realistic assessment or defeatism?

[dalonewolf25]

both

[ChewyChewy]

I won't say anything about this guy's sarcasm, but he doesn't know how to spell.

[Aquablast]

I think having an industry destroying itself is actually quite common.

I am not too sure about the point of those articles, but I am sure the comics can be saved. And I am also sure that the big companies won't be the one who saves it. (They absolutely can, if they want... However, I don't know if they will or want to...)

[Foldo]

Both for me too.

One solution againts it: reading good independant comics and the Franco-Belgian comics! (Blacksad, etc.)

[rickgriffin]

Of course it's a realistic assessment. The comics industry has always been strangling itself for a very long time--I mean seriously, a good run nowadays is 30,000 readers, instead of several hundred thousand. There is no reason the comics industry should have shrank, except that the companies were slated to make big profits, and so the purchasing owners decides to wring as much cash out of the industry as possible.

And if you know anything about any entertainment industry, that means extremely shoddy workmanship. In terms of the company, that actually means that having a good story by accident (accidentally hired a visionary) is MUCH worse, because it either means that a good story is drowned in crap, or else it's a big enough success to keep the company afloat far longer than it ought to have been.

But its the way of all business, too. It usually goes like this: most of what's on the market is crap, no matter what product you're talking about. Whether or not the most prominent or expensive crap is the best really depends on the industry in question, and usually it doesn't matter. We all KNOW there's far better food than McDonalds and yet it doesn't matter if it's the most prominent franchise there is, because McDonalds is not trying to shut out the gourmet restaurants. There's always going to be people who want the top-notch stuff.

Actually finding the best gourmet restaurant, however, is a lot harder, because it is not prominent, and they have much lower patronage than McDonalds does. It sort of has to be that way: a franchise is not the place for an experience gourmet chef to cook in. So people don't look for experienced gourmet chefs at McDonalds; if they want gourmet food, they have to go through other channels than the one that is most prominent (massive advertising/availability)

Now, this is comparable to the comics industry, except in a few key ways.
1) Entertainment, unlike food, is far more speculative. It is not difficult to determine what people like to eat, and even a souless frozen or short-order copy of a gourmet dish is a lot better than junk. Determining what people like to watch, however, is harder, because entertainment does not pertain to one sensation (taste); it pertains to many sensations that we have not been successful in untangling yet, as mental tastes are far more fickle than the senses.
2) Print material and time spent being entertained is a bigger investment than a meal. We HAVE to set aside time in our lives to eat, so we're all very experienced with it. Entertainment takes on a lot of different forms than just what goes into the mouth, and while most of us have or take time for entertainment, 'comics' is sort of like 'burritos' in the grand scale of available foods: it's only a small subsection of what's possible, and few people go out of their way to find really GOOD burritos all the time, or support the burritos industry by buying frozen burritos or going to Taco Bell instead of going to the best mexican restaurant in town.
3) There's pretty much a lock-out on distribution in comics. Going by the burrito example, it would be very difficult to convince people that a burrito is actually something that can be REALLY good if prepared right, if the burritos had to match the distribution model that comics had. That is, you'd be paying a lot for a fancy-looking burrito that just doesn't taste all that good, but all the normal outlets you'd look for your burrito fix are shut down. There are still gourmet burritos out there, but they're rare. You can't buy a gourmet burrito more than once if it were like the comic industry; you can only buy it once and hope that your recommendations to people on which burritos are ACTUALLY good sticks.

And that's the key difference: in the entertainment industry, most people only buy a copy of an entertainment package one time. Unlike others, they will rarely buy any more than one, and the price reflects this. But it also means that it's very difficult to determine quality by sales figures, which business people try to do all the time. And because copycats usually do well the first two or three times, they often take it as a sign that it's working, and then it's not working.

For a sequence of original-copy-copy-copy, to the studio they all look like new, separate projects. But to people who purchase this stuff, it's actually like eating the same burrito four times in a row with the quality going downhill quickly. So eventually they lose their taste for burritos, except when someone finally says that this burrito is good, then they all go out in droves to get that burrito, and then the copycats come again.

The dynamic is different than other industries--and it's poor for comics not because movies are better, but because american superhero comics, in general, suck and are made of nepotism, and they squelch variety. So fewer and fewer people bother to buy comics, and new talent going into the field are told by their bosses they're not allowed to experiment, or try anything new even for a trial period, because anything new (to them) is a huge undertaking (a new project), while to the buying public, it would be another burrito, but possibly have a good flavor this time.

You need experimentation in entertainment because people can't buy the same product every time and be continually satisfied the same way, like they would be with food.

It's not just comics of course, you could probably tell by how I was talking that a lot of this applies to the entertainment industry in general. But unlike, say, movies, comics don't even have possibility to get the exposure or distribution that popular indie films would get and open up new flavor possibilities for more people than the 30,000 that still read print superhero comics, because of the stranglehold that the big four have. Because the industry's been such a crapsack for so long, few people even look that direction anymore, even though they still SHOULD have a leg up on regular print novels for their obvious advantages. They do in Japan--because the distribution/monopoly problems don't plague them like they do in the US.

[Foldo]

In fact, the question of Liam is ambiguous:
-Realistic assessment: about the comic artists
-Defeatism: about the Big4 and Diamond

That's why a lot of us said "both".

[Penwrite]

Of course it's a realistic assessment. The comics industry has always been strangling itself for a very long time--I mean seriously, a good run nowadays is 30,000 readers, instead of several hundred thousand. There is no reason the comics industry should have shrank, except that the companies were slated to make big profits, and so the purchasing owners decides to wring as much cash out of the industry as possible.

And if you know anything about any entertainment industry, that means extremely shoddy workmanship. In terms of the company, that actually means that having a good story by accident (accidentally hired a visionary) is MUCH worse, because it either means that a good story is drowned in crap, or else it's a big enough success to keep the company afloat far longer than it ought to have been.

But its the way of all business, too. It usually goes like this: most of what's on the market is crap, no matter what product you're talking about. Whether or not the most prominent or expensive crap is the best really depends on the industry in question, and usually it doesn't matter. We all KNOW there's far better food than McDonalds and yet it doesn't matter if it's the most prominent franchise there is, because McDonalds is not trying to shut out the gourmet restaurants. There's always going to be people who want the top-notch stuff.

Actually finding the best gourmet restaurant, however, is a lot harder, because it is not prominent, and they have much lower patronage than McDonalds does. It sort of has to be that way: a franchise is not the place for an experience gourmet chef to cook in. So people don't look for experienced gourmet chefs at McDonalds; if they want gourmet food, they have to go through other channels than the one that is most prominent (massive advertising/availability)

Now, this is comparable to the comics industry, except in a few key ways.
1) Entertainment, unlike food, is far more speculative. It is not difficult to determine what people like to eat, and even a souless frozen or short-order copy of a gourmet dish is a lot better than junk. Determining what people like to watch, however, is harder, because entertainment does not pertain to one sensation (taste); it pertains to many sensations that we have not been successful in untangling yet, as mental tastes are far more fickle than the senses.
2) Print material and time spent being entertained is a bigger investment than a meal. We HAVE to set aside time in our lives to eat, so we're all very experienced with it. Entertainment takes on a lot of different forms than just what goes into the mouth, and while most of us have or take time for entertainment, 'comics' is sort of like 'burritos' in the grand scale of available foods: it's only a small subsection of what's possible, and few people go out of their way to find really GOOD burritos all the time, or support the burritos industry by buying frozen burritos or going to Taco Bell instead of going to the best mexican restaurant in town.
3) There's pretty much a lock-out on distribution in comics. Going by the burrito example, it would be very difficult to convince people that a burrito is actually something that can be REALLY good if prepared right, if the burritos had to match the distribution model that comics had. That is, you'd be paying a lot for a fancy-looking burrito that just doesn't taste all that good, but all the normal outlets you'd look for your burrito fix are shut down. There are still gourmet burritos out there, but they're rare. You can't buy a gourmet burrito more than once if it were like the comic industry; you can only buy it once and hope that your recommendations to people on which burritos are ACTUALLY good sticks.

And that's the key difference: in the entertainment industry, most people only buy a copy of an entertainment package one time. Unlike others, they will rarely buy any more than one, and the price reflects this. But it also means that it's very difficult to determine quality by sales figures, which business people try to do all the time. And because copycats usually do well the first two or three times, they often take it as a sign that it's working, and then it's not working.

For a sequence of original-copy-copy-copy, to the studio they all look like new, separate projects. But to people who purchase this stuff, it's actually like eating the same burrito four times in a row with the quality going downhill quickly. So eventually they lose their taste for burritos, except when someone finally says that this burrito is good, then they all go out in droves to get that burrito, and then the copycats come again.

The dynamic is different than other industries--and it's poor for comics not because movies are better, but because american superhero comics, in general, suck and are made of nepotism, and they squelch variety. So fewer and fewer people bother to buy comics, and new talent going into the field are told by their bosses they're not allowed to experiment, or try anything new even for a trial period, because anything new (to them) is a huge undertaking (a new project), while to the buying public, it would be another burrito, but possibly have a good flavor this time.

You need experimentation in entertainment because people can't buy the same product every time and be continually satisfied the same way, like they would be with food.

It's not just comics of course, you could probably tell by how I was talking that a lot of this applies to the entertainment industry in general. But unlike, say, movies, comics don't even have possibility to get the exposure or distribution that popular indie films would get and open up new flavor possibilities for more people than the 30,000 that still read print superhero comics, because of the stranglehold that the big four have. Because the industry's been such a crapsack for so long, few people even look that direction anymore, even though they still SHOULD have a leg up on regular print novels for their obvious advantages. They do in Japan--because the distribution/monopoly problems don't plague them like they do in the US.

My word, Mr. Griffin, you're excellently insightful. :3

[Dissension]

All That Stuff He Said

We actually had this conversation in training today. One of the guys in my class is a freelance comic book artist and everyone else is a nerd.

We didn't have the burrito analogy, but our conclusions were otherwise pretty similar.

[Penwrite]

Ya know, I realized that I should probably make an actual comment on the subject, instead of on Rick's most verbose response.

Honestly, I believe that webcomics are the future, in terms of quality of storytelling. Stuff like Lightbringer, for an example, show that it's not the superhero genre that's gone stale and generic, just the massive industry's utilization of it, specifically the rampant executive meddling and editorial mandates. Webcomics, for the most part, have a freedom to experiment that is missing in big-name comics these days, and as a result are just more entertaining. It's even been shown that it's possible for webcomics to break into the wider population at large; Penny Arcade's video game on Xbox Arcade for example.

The moment there's a movie based on a webcomic though, we're all doomed.

[Sleet]

Webcomics are at the very least the future of newspaper comics. As terrible as it sounds, the people who read newspaper comics but are reluctant to read webcomics are eventually all going to die, leaving a generation that prefers the higher-quality and more specialized output of webcomics (terrible webcomics aside).

Comic books, on the other hand, I think still will last. At least longer than newspaper comics. There are just way too many collectors out there. I think that tradition has lasting power.

[CaptainPea]

The problem with newspapers isn't that it's impossible to have a good newspaper comic; it's more that webcomics have no uniform standards. At first it sounds like chaos, but then you realize it's a good thing. For example, one day good ol' Ricky G. might say "this Halloween, I want to do a creepy huge one panel strip which totally defies the layout of my normal strips." The only thing standing in his way is the actual accomplishment. He also might say, "three comics is the most I can put out in one week without a loss of quality." Meanwhile, Calvin and Hobbes was revolutionary when it was granted special permission not to use cookie-cutter Sunday layouts.

[Sleet]

Newspaper comics need to be safe. They have to be clean, rather than by choice, for starters. Even if they can vary their layout, they have to fit into a certain box. They need to make safe jokes. They can't appeal to just certain demographics.

Take nerds for example. In the newspaper, you have Foxtrot with one main character who is involved in nerd humor. Go online, and the internet will proverbially ask you "what type of nerd?" Pretty much every type of nerd under the sun has at least one webcomic for them. As society gets more internet-savvy, non-nerdy hobbies and demographics will only get more and more representation in the webcomic world. There could be webcomics about golf, or ones that make jokes only bankers would understand. Stuff like that. People read comics that are relevant to their interests, and the fact that the internet encourages risks instead of discouraging them helps people find the comics that are right for them.

[angelusbr]

I don't have any numbers to back me up, so anyone is free to correct me, but aren't mangas (which ARE comics) extremely popular?
I have my own collection of mangas and I considered expading my collection to some Dc and Marvel stuff, but I saw some comic reviews in the internet and also borrowed some from my cousins and I hated them. It's like western comics writters are going insane for "new" ideas. I've seen a review, made by Linkara, where he showed one Marvel comic which defended the love between a Pietro and his sister as if it were the coolest thing in the world. Sure there ARE mangas way stranger than that.
There also good western stories out there. I forgot the title of the story, but it feathured Batman and Superman trying to get an antidote from the Joker to heal Superman's girlfriend and Supoerman almost killed Joker. i liked that story.
My opinion: they should stop trying so hard to make new stories. Sometimes, something simple is the best.

[Penwrite]

I don't have any numbers to back me up, so anyone is free to correct me, but aren't mangas (which ARE comics) extremely popular?
I have my own collection of mangas and I considered expading my collection to some Dc and Marvel stuff, but I saw some comic reviews in the internet and also borrowed some from my cousins and I hated them. It's like western comics writters are going insane for "new" ideas. I've seen a review, made by Linkara, where he showed one Marvel comic which defended the love between a Pietro and his sister as if it were the coolest thing in the world. Sure there ARE mangas way stranger than that.
There also good western stories out there. I forgot the title of the story, but it feathured Batman and Superman trying to get an antidote from the Joker to heal Superman's girlfriend and Supoerman almost killed Joker. i liked that story.
My opinion: they should stop trying so hard to make new stories. Sometimes, something simple is the best.

Well, that's really in a whole 'nother ballpark there. Manga, for the most part, has its own separate demographic than comics from, say, Marvel or DC.

[Sleet]

I think it's stupid that people act like manga and "comic books" are different things. They're just two styles of the same thing.

[angelusbr]

I think it's stupid that people act like manga and "comic books" are different things. They're just two styles of the same thing.

That is true, but I prefer the eastern style over the western one. =X

[Liam]

Like the above links said, the massive success of manga is to a big part accounted for by the fact superhero comics scared the broad public away from the medium comic with its endless repetition of one and the same story, but since people actually like comics they turned to manga because they provide a much higher diversity in themes and pretty much everything. It's not because they're foreign, - even though that's certainly an appeal for some - it's because they're different people dig it. More people would buy even domestic comics if they were different (case in point: Bone).

[Penwrite]

I think it's stupid that people act like manga and "comic books" are different things. They're just two styles of the same thing.

Sleet, you have to understand that they basically ARE completely different things. They come from extremely different cultures, and are created with different values, styles, and heroic archetypes.

[Sleet]

But who says everything has to follow a pattern? We don't call eastern movies different things than western movies. I don't see why comic books need to be treated as different kinds of media. Or cartoons for that matter.

[Liam]

Manga, comic and graphic novel are in the end just labels defined by arbitrary boundaries.

What differentiates a "manga" from a "western comic" so much? Both are variants of the sequential art medium and feature a plethora of distinct art styles (compare e.g. the two predominant blocks of character design exemplified by Masamume Shirow's early works with their cartoony characters and Norihiro Yagi's stylized, yet more realistically looking ones) as well as of distinct story types (manga gives you the full spectrum from zany, run-of-the-mill hero fantasies to, well, completely different works). Values Dissonance comes into play sometimes, yes, but at this point of time pretty much every industrial nation on this planet is westernized enough to marginalize this. People can relate to the sorrows and hardships of comic characters, whether they're asian-, american- or european-descended.

[Penwrite]

*shrugs* Eh, most people need labels like that. It brings a certain comfort I guess if they can differentiate between manga and comic books. Also, there are different names for different kinds of coffee, aren't there? You can't go into Starbucks, order a mocha, and then expect a cappuccino just because they both have coffee in them. They have different names because they have unique qualities to themslelves.

There has been some mix between comic and manga recently however. Stan Lee, one of Marvel's greatest people ever, did the concept work for Ultimo, a manga. And trust me, it just feels different from other manga I read.

[angelusbr]

reading this topic made me remember the anime adaptations of both Iron Man and Wolverine. Just one advice, stay away from the latter.

*shrugs* Eh, most people need labels like that. It brings a certain comfort I guess if they can differentiate between manga and comic books. Also, there are different names for different kinds of coffee, aren't there? You can't go into Starbucks, order a mocha, and then expect a cappuccino just because they both have coffee in them. They have different names because they have unique qualities to themslelves.

I completely agree with this.

[Dissension]

I'm not even 79.2% sure this thread is on topic anymore. At least we know who the local Lesters are, though.

If we're being anything like honest with ourselves, manga and comics are both graphic novels; they portray a story through a visual medium. Taking another user's analogy a step further... if you go to a coffee shop, you'll end up with coffee regardless of whether it's called mocha or cappuccino.

With that said, please get back on topic.

[Penwrite]

I'm not even 79.2% sure this thread is on topic anymore. At least we know who the local Lesters are, though.

If we're being anything like honest with ourselves, manga and comics are both graphic novels; they portray a story through a visual medium. Taking another user's analogy a step further... if you go to a coffee shop, you'll end up with coffee regardless of whether it's called mocha or cappuccino.

With that said, please get back on topic.

I didn't want to sound like a Lester, I prefer comic books. But oh well, if I came across that way I have only myself to blame.

But anyways, I for one predict that at some point in time, perhaps decades into the future, Marvel or DC shall leave their comic book origins and produce stories of their characters solely through movies and games. Marvel is already one step in the right direction, thanks to Disney. =/

[Liam]

I for one predict that at some point in time, perhaps decades into the future, Marvel or DC shall leave their comic book origins and produce stories of their characters solely through movies and games. Marvel is already one step in the right direction, thanks to Disney. =/

Considering the economical as well as critical successes of e.g. the Dark Knight trilogy and Arkham Asylum this may become a possibility for their megabucks-jugglers.

A complete retreat of the Big Four from the comics market would be the best-case scenario for the medium, because it opens opportunities for today's indie comic-makers to sell their works, thus bringing actual quality back into the game.