2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

For old comic discussions threads! seriously what did you think
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Soerix
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Soerix »

Well, quite the bittersweet ending for this long arc. But at least, it sets up more Marion arcs in the future!

I'm also quite worried about Fox... Last we see of him is him passing out with a scar on the right side of his face :( I wonder if that scar is gonna be part of his design now. I hope not.
Also, it's nice to see Mungo worry about him (I love Mungo :D) but I wish we got to see that reaction from Fido as well...

And finally, merry Christmas everyone!! :)
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Padgriffin
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Padgriffin »

Not exactly the conclusion I would have wanted, but it’s still quite nice. Still sad Pete and Dragon didn’t play a larger role though, but at least we saw King. Looking forward to what comes next.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Obbl »

Mungo tending to Fox's wound is adorable :D
Marion and Lois are also adorable ^^
Excellent Christmas strip =3
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VeryAngryDeer
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by VeryAngryDeer »

Okay, back to mentally screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" and "WHY, STEWARD, WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS TO ME?"

Well, he's gone and leapt off the moral event horizon. Full villain mode.

All ambiguity has been removed. There are still questions, but a full confession in front of multiple witnesses, I can't argue against that.

I think its a a testament to how well the comic is scripted and drawn, that people can look at the same evidence and come away with such different interpretations, yet still have those interpretations make sense. I still think that before this strip, it could have gone either way.


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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by TheSilverFox51 »

I'm going to be honest, I wasn't completely invested in this story arc at first, but it has become such an interesting progression of the characters. The way Rick has slowly, but surely, been building up his world and his characters through each of his story arcs is something to truly admire. I think that the way this arc has ended has really peeked my interest again, in both the world and characters. Can't wait to find out more about this story in the future. Merry Christmas everybody!
PS Fox is gonna have some wicked scars after this
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Jixstun
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Jixstun »

Something I'd really like to see in future is a story where some ECP member (or a number of them) are doing really well & theres a news story about them using their success to give back & support the ECP, leading to a scene where a certain badger is reading the story & destroying the paper/news device in rage.

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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by VeryAngryDeer »

I noticed that Lois' eyelashes are a lot more prominent now. She must be using mascara or something.

Makes sense, if you've had all your biological sex characteristics removed but you still need to signal your gender, that's a pretty good way to do it.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Macsen »

As for Devo, I'm sure Lois could correct him. Grabbing him by the scruff with claws out would probably take care of that real quick.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by CunningFox »

VeryAngryDeer wrote:I noticed that Lois' eyelashes are a lot more prominent now. She must be using mascara or something.

Makes sense, if you've had all your biological sex characteristics removed but you still need to signal your gender, that's a pretty good way to do it.
On the same note, I noticed a while back that Marion's chin-fur looks rather scraggly and beard-like, similar to Grape's when she was pretending to be Sabrina's boyfriend. Probably a way for him to look more masculine.
Last edited by CunningFox on Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Legotron123 »

I am still very confused over how Lois got turned. The only ways I can see it happening are:
1. Trinket dropped the coin on her, than picked it up and flew away, which should have caused her and Poncho to notice him.
Or
2. He divebombed her, smacking her with the coin and flying away, which definitely should’ve caused her and Poncho to notice him.
Also, why did the coin change their genders? It didn’t do that with Thomas and Steward.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by trekkie »

First of all, Merry Christmas, all!

Secondly, I hope Fox didn’t suffer any permanent damage from Steward’s attack. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of our villainous badger and now Fox and Mungo have a score to settle as well.

I am glad to see Marion and Lois’s relationship strengthening and they’re both look awesome.

Great job on this story, Rick!
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by andwhyisit »

Ruska wrote:Looking back at the panel where Lois first transforms there is a bird in the background. It has to be Trinket.
I have been pointing that out multiple times in these comic threads ever since said comic was shown. Is it fair to say "I told you so"?
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by GameCobra »

Woke up and had to remind myself: Poor Fox. :(

Fox no doubt is going to have an eye patch or something to cover up the eye. It might heal, but the marks will remain behind. Sorta reminds me of the wolves. King's pups will consider it cool at least.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Legotron123 »

You know, whenever Steward finally gets defeated, I want Marion to be the one that brings him down. Steward clearly wants to be nemeses with Keene, so it’d be nice to have him beaten not by the one he’s sworn to bring to ruin, but by the kid whose life he completely upended and then probably never thought of again. Kinda like that one BTAS episode where the Joker is nearly killed by the “worthless little nobody” he’s been bullying the whole episode, preferable with Steward getting exactly as upset when he realizes who’s actually going to be the one that takes him down.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by SeanWolf »

Well, not only is Steward a legit villain, Trinket is also helping him (though I wonder why)....at least Lois and Marion seem to be accepting of their current statuses now. That being said...Fox is not only going to have one heck of a scar, but I get the feeling he might be going through some character changes mentally now too.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Argent »

Jixstun wrote:Well, that sure cleared up Steward’s “Villain” status, even if like most good Villain’s, his plan has holes you could drive a truck through.
No kidding.

Actual humans have actual families and assets for their own support, so as the phenomenon grows only a few will be dependent on the ECP, and even hundreds of homeless ex-humans will put less strain on the Milton finances than one TV studio or "Theme Park World". More likely, given how crooked he turned out to be, Steward had been siphoning off money and cooking the books to make it look like the nascent ECP was responsible.

Also: called it on Trinket!
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by NHWestoN »

Merry Christmas, wild things! Enjoy and Happy new year, too. Best to friends, families, and phantasies for all good things.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by dr_eirik »

SeanWolf wrote:Well, not only is Steward a legit villain, Trinket is also helping him (though I wonder why)....at least Lois and Marion seem to be accepting of their current statuses now. That being said...Fox is not only going to have one heck of a scar, but I get the feeling he might be going through some character changes mentally now too.
I've got a bad feeling that we're going to see a depressed, injured Fox in the next arc.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by VeryAngryDeer »

andwhyisit wrote:
Ruska wrote:Looking back at the panel where Lois first transforms there is a bird in the background. It has to be Trinket.
I have been pointing that out multiple times in these comic threads ever since said comic was shown. Is it fair to say "I told you so"?
Yes it is.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Sir Chestnut »

This reminds me. I was wrong about my prediction of Olive chasing Marion up a tree when they went to King's house. :roll:
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Nathan Kerbonaut »

One mystery ends and another begins. This is a good ending, I for one didn't expect Rick to end the arc with a completely negative tone. So sweet how they're making the best of the situation together.
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Skorix
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Skorix »

Love where the comic is going so far, It might be a bittersweet ending for now but I think it's going to just have things get even more interesting when they pick up again. Also Lois and Marion are incredibly sweet.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by JamesTCat »

Well the year ended with a fantastic introduction of this new villain. Hopefully the good guys can beat Stewart and hopefully have the best ending possible.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Argent »

Why does Devo look like a quadruped?
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by CuriousCnidarian »

I started reading well after this arc started, and thus haven't been around for any conversation; is there any indication or theory as to why there's been genderbending as well as species tf with these last couple tfs, or has the curse cast on those coins always had the chance of this happening, but just hadn't manifested until Marion/Lois?
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by dr_eirik »

Argent wrote:Why does Devo look like a quadruped?
It really is the most our universe dog-like behavior I think we've ever seen in Housepets. I think he looks that way because we can't see his hands. I really hope we see more interaction with him, since that would be their "in" for the other characters.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Panther »

That's clear they needs to call Kitsune to remove the curse on the coin
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by SeanWolf »

One thing I will say? Marion looks adorable opening his gift :)
Panther wrote:That's clear they needs to call Kitsune to remove the curse on the coin
Didn't he say he wouldn't interfere? Though perhaps because the coins did belong to Pete, he'd change his mind now.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by dr_eirik »

SeanWolf wrote:One thing I will say? Marion looks adorable opening his gift :)
Panther wrote:That's clear they needs to call Kitsune to remove the curse on the coin
Didn't he say he wouldn't interfere? Though perhaps because the coins did belong to Pete, he'd change his mind now.
Kitsune already knows the setup. He always knew what was going on here, but he chose not to get involved because that's his nature. We don't really know if he can uncurse the coin, but if he could I'm not sure that he would.

So calling him to do something is kinda pointless.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Cesco »

Wow, impressive strip! The biggest ever... :shock: :D Steward is having revenge against Keene... :? Put more new animals in the ECP program is indeed a way to make it collapse in long-term, because Milton's heritage is going to end, sooner or later... Alright, the program stops here, but Steward not! :o Poor Fox. :| Trinket is back! And probably there's also Cody... They must have an important part in this plan and with those random people transformations... :roll: Eh, there's no solution for now, or for never... :? But it's very nice that these two still love a lot, doesn't matter how they look now. :D Curious minor character showing again, Devo, and he's Lois' dog... Eheh, Marion must remember of when that happened before with Mungo. :P
Merry Christmas! :D
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by trekkie »

Marion is pretty adorable throughout the Christmas panels, I love his tail hug of the Christmas tree, and he looks cute in Lois’s hood. Good to see Marion has his friendship bracelet/collar back.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by kavviyenta »

Speaking of Devo, what pet does Marion have? I'm pretty sure every Babylon households has at least one.
Padgriffin wrote:Not exactly the conclusion I would have wanted, but it’s still quite nice. Still sad Pete and Dragon didn’t play a larger role though, but at least we saw King. Looking forward to what comes next.
Wonder if the transformed duo interact more with King after the incident. Maybe King might wear clothes more often. But then I remember this so... http://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/201 ... to-center/
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by dr_eirik »

kavviyenta wrote:Speaking of Devo, what pet does Marion have? I'm pretty sure every Babylon households has at least one.
I'm pretty sure that he doesn't have one, since you'd think he'd have encountered them when he woke up and screamed.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Sir Chestnut »

kavviyenta wrote:Speaking of Devo, what pet does Marion have? I'm pretty sure every Babylon households has at least one.
Padgriffin wrote:Not exactly the conclusion I would have wanted, but it’s still quite nice. Still sad Pete and Dragon didn’t play a larger role though, but at least we saw King. Looking forward to what comes next.
Wonder if the transformed duo interact more with King after the incident. Maybe King might wear clothes more often. But then I remember this so... http://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/201 ... to-center/
I'm hoping King gets a job with the ECP as an on-boarding agent or something as he has the best experience for the role, although I think he'd be reluctant to do it since he's not very social. Maybe they could be his interns. :lol:
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Nobody »

SeanWolf wrote:Well, not only is Steward a legit villain, Trinket is also helping him (though I wonder why)....at least Lois and Marion seem to be accepting of their current statuses now. That being said...Fox is not only going to have one heck of a scar, but I get the feeling he might be going through some character changes mentally now too.
Trinket was introduced with Corey, and in the second arc with the two, Trinket was showing displeasure at Corey repeatedly failing to pay her (is trinket boy or girl? I forget if that's been explicitly stated) for all the hard work she was doing. Then, we started seeing Corey in the treehouse, but never trinket. I think Corey ditched trinket as soon as he got into Jessica's place and Steward scooped her up. Also, I think Trinket may be thrilled at the idea of a "magic shiny," as it was a line she said in an earlier arc.

In any case, what are my thoughts on the overall arc?

Meandering introduction
Well, before I really go into detail, I want to mention something. A few years ago, I came across an article that really changed how I analyze stories. In it, the critic proposed something he called the "tangible details" theory. What he proposed was that writing is an extremely technical skill, even if it is an art. The average person does not understand what goes into construction a story. They don't know the fine points of story structure, or characterization, or pacing. All they know is whether or not they enjoyed it.
It's a bit like when a car breaks down. If you ask a mechanic to tell you funny stories of what people have said they thought was wrong with their car, they'll tell you all kinds of things about how crazily people misdiagnose their car problems because they don't know thing 1 about cars. It's the same with writing. People don't know thing one about storytelling, so most of the time, when they don't get into a story, they don't know what it is that's actually wrong. So when they aren't into a film, they gravitate toward the most tangible details to blame for the experience. The example he used was Spider-Man 3. People complain about Emo Peter and the dance scene, people complain about how there were too many villains. But that's not why the film doesn't work. Those are just the tangible details. In fact, he argued that Peter's dancing in the streets scene was one of the only good scenes in the movie: it had narrative energy, it served the plot, and its humor was built around who Peter Parker was as a character. But the rest of the movie was so badly structured, and had so little to stand out, that Peter dancing is the only thing they can remember, so obviously it must be what's wrong with it. It's a tangible detail. But what was really wrong with it was that none of the scenes effectively built on each other. It wasn't that there was too many villains, it was that their stories didn't meaningfully relate to each other, so they just interrupted each other constantly, forcing the audience to keep switching gears between stories every time the scene changed, making it impossible for the audience to focus on any one thing, thus tension and investment could never be properly built.
To that, I add the example of the Last Jedi. People complain about the logic of how the bombers work, or the physics of the slow speed chase, or that Ray is a Mary Sue, but none of these are what's actually wrong with the movie. IN fact, the logic of the bombers and the physics of the slow speed chase are actually perfectly accurate, and before we can even begin to address the question of Rays Mary Sue-ness, we'd first need to agree on a definition of the term, which nobody has ever properly done. What's really wrong with that movie is that it has a flawed structure. Not a lot actually happens in the slow speed chase. Finn's side plot surrounding the Rich Twit's planet is given way more screen time than the plot needs it to have. Both of those issues disrupts narrative flow because it cuts away from the compelling part of the story (namely Ray and Skywalker). The film also has some pretty severe tonal problems. But those problems are too technical for the average movie going audience to grasp, so they latch onto tangible details to explain why they just aren't getting into it.

Why do I bring this all up? Partly because I talk too much But also because I feel it's a pretty solid foundation for the way I am going to discuss my final thoughts. Namely, from this I have come to view problems with stories taking two forms: Superficial flaws, and structural flaws.
A structural flaw is where the plot or characterization has something seriously wrong that completely contradicts the story's thematic intent, or breaks the narrative flow, or pacing. These are serious problems, and even a single structural error has the potential to ruin an entire story. That said, a structural problem doesn't always ruin a story, but it usually at least kicks from great to just okay.
A superficial flaw is one that's not related to the structure. It's something that doesn't disrupt the pacing, narrative flow, characterization, and is overall just a little bit odd. They aren't very big and usually only get noticed on many repeat viewings/readings. A good example is the inexplicably weird time flow of Beauty and the Beast. If you watch that movie, the passage of time inside the castle seems to be happening at a very different rate from outside. It's not clear why. It's possible that this oddness is just a casualty of the pacing needs of the film, because it would have been really difficult to make the flow of time clear without dragging the film out in a way that would lose audience investment. It doesn't hurt the movie, but it is odd. You might or might not notice it, but it doesn't hurt your ability to enjoy the film unless you're a snotty internet critic whose entire gimmick is finding things to complain about *cough cinemasins cough cough*. You can have lots of superficial flaws in a story, but still have strong enough structure to get by. This is why Spider-Man 2 (the Sam Raimi one) is my favorite superhero movie even though I can acknowledge that it has many flaws - it's flaws are pretty much entirely superficial ones.

The Superficial Flaws

So, superficial flaws. Keep in mind, I'm bringing these up because they are things I've thought about, but none of these matter on the whole. They don't hurt the story, but they do exist.
Okay, actually only one stands out in my memory. The sex-change aspect. This is almost a textbook example of a superficial flaw. This element of the story exists for no discernible reason. It never affects the story in any meaningful way, and yet the story takes time to draw attention to it on at least three separate occasions that I can remember. This places an uneccessary amount of attention on a story point that serves no purpose, which is mildly distracting.
When it first happened, this one actually worried me. I thought it was actually going to become a structural problem, because I thought there was no way Rick would draw so much attention to it unless he was going to do something with it. I expected it to try and be some kind of trans-gender rights themed story, which at the very core of the story was contradicted by the events. You couldn't have made this about transgender rights because there was no sign whatsoever that Marion was gender dysphoric, and him being changed by a third party with no indication that it was what he wanted - legally, I believe that even someone diagnosed dysphoric has to give informed consent before a sex-change operation can even be considered - was a grotesque violation of his basic human rights. To try and make it into a trans-rights themed story would just be inherently contradicted by its premise.
That said, this isn't the direction Rick took, so instead we're just left with this oddity that serves only as a minor distraction that never really caused significant problems. It's just . . . there for no apparent reason.
This did create another superficial problem in that Marion's mother made the kind of statement that trans-individuals have heard from parents. There is literally no reason for her to talk like that because this wasn't something Marion chose, but something forced on him by someone else. It's more akin to a mafia-style genital mutilation rather than a trans situation. It makes Marion's mother much, much more horrible because she's blaming her son for something a (now proven) card-carrying villain did to him.

That said, there are a couple of things that I think really lessen what little damage that moment does to the story. Firstly, the fact that she said anything of the sort like that suggests that she is an unreasonably critical person. Secondly, Marion's little, "Look Mom!" moment suggests him having a strong need for approval, one that makes him act childish in her presence. Furthermore, the fact that we are shown him going to Christmas with his girlfriend, but not his own parents is also very telling. This can then be tied in to Marion's feelings of inadequacy - feelings that I think Rick meant to imply are a result of his mother being unreasonably critical of him. Yes, the explicit parallel to trans-rights issues is a bit of a distraction because it gets us thinking about something unrelated to the plot or theme, but it still is effective in making us feel what we're supposed to feel: that Marion is being personally hindered by a semi-unhealthy relationship with his own mother.

The Structural Flaws

Now, structural problems. Do I detect any? Well, yes. There's a pacing issue with this arc. Now, I measure pacing in terms of how much information is doled out from scene to scene - that's NEW information, because technically everything that happens conveys some form of information. The more information a single scene gives us, the faster it feels, while the less information it gives, the slower it feels. Proper pacing is managing the conveyance of information so that the audience is being given enough investment to engage them, but not so much that they don't have time to process it and assess the impact of it.
That in mind, the flow of information in this arc is weird. In the first chapter, we established that Marion became a squirrel, that he was in high school, that it was finals week, that he had a girlfriend. Then there was the plot necessary movement to get Marion out and alone so we could later meet Steward and that stakes would be established. All well and good for the most part. I like that Rick was willing to actually make us feel sheer despair for Marion, because the harder someone has to fight for their win, the more satisfying that win feels.
There are a few minor problems here. Very minor, but they do exist. First, the TG thing becomes a hiccup. A whole page gets wasted on reinforcing that Marrion is now female with four panels of him just looking in the mirror. This is a lot of time in webcomic terms to spend on this moment, considering A) we already conveyed the sex change in the previous page; and B) the conclusion to this consideration amounted to "I can't be bothered to deal with this right now," which then goes on to be what the whole arc continually says about the issue. It's just one page, but it is a hiccup. Also, the first chapter spends a considerable amount of time conveying that "being a squirrel means that things are different now." We had him having difficulty getting breakfast, having difficulty using the phone, having difficulty driving a car (this one being insurmountable). Now, that does need to be established and any one of those was deserving of a whole page to reinforce the point. However, it would have been more narratively efficient if any other scenes that showed Marrion having trouble adapting to his new shape ALSO conveyed some other bit of valuable information, since "squirrels can't do human things very easily" was already established.
This is a minor structural problem. Not a one that kills it, and at the time, a slow start up can be fine, but it ended up becoming the trend of the story's pacing for the rest of the arc.

In chapter 2, we had a page reinforcing that people weren't going to take his claims of transformation seriously - introduced with the dogs in chapter one, then with Craig and Draig again in the second chapter. Hmm. No, because actually that scene also set up Jessica accepting Marion in and all that reinforcement was only conveyed in one panel. And no one believing him was an important part of the tension in the resolution/tension break at the end of chapter 3.
Actually, I don't think I can pick out anything really wrong with the pacing of chapter 2. On the other hand, that moment does draw attention to Craig and Draig, who went on to have no relevance to the plot, but under the circumstances, that's such a minor thing that I don't even think I can call that a superficial flaw. It was our own fault that we all wasted so much mental energy wondering what their involvement was.

Chapter 3

. . .

You know what? I wrote started to write out my look at Chapter 4 before checking on it and realizing that chapter half of what I thought was chapter 2 was actually chapter 3. Moving on.

Chapter 4

It felt slow and a lot of it is stuff that I might have thought at the time was not conveying important information, but . . .
Let's see, Bronson expressing interest in stealing Lois away served as something to get Marion thinking about his inadequacies, which is central to his character. The teacher giving him a tardy serves the same purpose, but at the same time, it does serve to push him one step closer to his breakdown, which I think was probably necessary for making said breakdown feel believable. The lunchroom conversation . . . yeah, that one feels a bit redundant. While some people expressing the idea of becoming animals if it means their schooling is paid for is a new point, it doesn't feel all that relevant to the story and doesn't come up again. It felt like it took a while for them to get from Marion's breakdown to going to see Thomas.
The interplay between Lana and Lucretia is needless to the plot, but it does give me one of my favorite funny moments from the whole arc.
The time it took them to get info out of Poncho felt like it delayed the story, but it did serve the purpose of making use of Marion's insecurity. It plays it for a joke at first, but then the story moves to make it an actual issue he's grappling with, so really can't cut that.

Chapter 5
Again, the TG thing disrupts the flow by taking a whole page to draw attention to a story detail, only to say "it's not important, don't worry about it." Lois's interest in kitsune is . . . well, it's a character trait that gets us to Kitsu at an appropriate speed, but then takes up a whole extra page of her basically squeeing over him, which is a natural response in keeping with that trait, which then features no more in the story - though admittedly, in what other way was it going to come up again without breaking flow? Maybe the narrative efficiency could have been better served if there was a different reason to go to Kitsune (him being someone who could potentially solve the problem is enough, really). That same squee page also uses up a whole huge panel to convey that Kitsu looks however he wants to look, thank you very much. Kitsu spends quite a lot of time being Kitsu, which maybe could have been trimmed a bit. Maybe? Certainly the transition to Steward is super abrupt, but then despite my initial concerns, the actual resolution to that was pretty flawlessly paced.

Filler
Okay, yeah, this is a real problem. It sets up pointless delays in ways that in no way relate to the story at hand, not only breaking flow, but breaking tension, meaning the tension of the cliff-hangers gets a bit lost. There was no reason for a tension break at these times, but if there was, it would have been better served providing one that actually in some way related to the story. On the other hand, considering Rick was apparently writing this as he went, I assume these exist to give him time to actually work out the story without going on hiatus. So, it was either give us filler, go on hiatus, or dive headlong in without a proper plan. None of those are good options and all have their drawbacks. As for myself, I might have considered a hiatus a better option, as it doesn't create a bunch of pages that must be subsequently skipped when re-reading the archives if you want to focus on the story, I honestly can't say that's based on anything other than personal preference, and since none are good options, I'll have to be satisfied that he was smart enough to not pick the worst of the three (diving ahead without a plan).

I haven't gone back and reread the arc in detail yet, so maybe when I do, I'd have more to say, but that all leads me to one fundamental problem.
When I go back and reread the arc, I won't be consuming it the same way I did the first time. It's not like a movie, where when I watch the movie again, I'm still experiencing it more or less the same way, in a single sitting from beginning to end. With a webcomic, though, when I read it the first time, it was one page every two to three days, but every time I re-read it, I'll be reading it all at once. That means I absorb the story at a different pace, meaning the pace is likely to be far less problematic - or possibly even not problematic at all.
This, really, is why I was making a point of trying to actually document my concerns along the way. I will never be able to experience it that one-page-at-a-time way again, so I can't analyze it after the fact.
And there's the brick wall I slam into. I want to be able to put my finger on WHY this arc felt so slow at the time and, if only for my own satisfaction, be able to say how it might have been better done. At the same time, I could not have possibly said what bits of information being conveyed were vital to the plot until I saw how it ended, because only then do you really know for sure what it was all for. So analyzing the comic is incredibly frustrating because I *have* to analyze it as it's going if I'm to get a sense of how it's pacing works, but I can't analyze it until it's over because that's the only way I know if it's actually pacing itself properly.

: |

A Problem for the Comic as a Whole
This one isn't a problem for the arc itself, just one as to how the comic relates to the comic as a whole. I'm sure this won't be mind blowing, or the first time anyone's said it, but I'm commenting anyway because . . . reasons?
This arc does continue the comic's overall trend of making the actual main characters the least engaging part of the comic. At this point, it really feels like Housepets has become its own spin-off. While there's lots of fun to be had with them when they story focuses on them, they are pretty rarely parts I care about in any way other than a bit of fun, light-hearted entertainment. I mean, even in Temple Crashers 2, where they were super central to the plot itself, it wasn't even ABOUT them. They were just there the point of view through which the story was mostly told. And again, when it came to the climax, what happened? Grape and Peanut get shunted out of the plot so that the story can climax around Keene and Res, because they have way more going on with them as characters than either Peanut or Grape. The most we got for evolving their characters was two panels of relationship turbulence between Peanut and Tarot that was also shoved aside and not addressed until the tail-end of the hot-springs arc, where it was basically resolved by lampshading it and giving a vague and only implied promise of getting to it later.
You've kind of made me lose interest in the principle characters by consistently finding ways to keep them from being related to the story. Again, that doesn't hurt this arc, but that does mean that, at least to me, whatever else you do next is just going to feel like fluff and filler until we get back to the ECP related stuff. I might enjoy it, since you do write it very well, but it only serves as a delay between now and the next time you do something I care about. I'm not going to tell you what to do about that, and am not the sort of person to just up and stop reading a webcomic just because it's not doing what I personally want, but . . . well, food for thought. This may not be reflective of the audience consensus, but that's my position.
At some point, I seemed to have accidentally switched over to talking to Rick directly there. Not my intent. >.>

What's Done Well
Now, it would be very wrong and entirely give the wrong impression for me to only talk about what I see are the problems. After all, I can't make it clear enough just how little these problems got in the way of me enjoying them, despite how much time I spent talking about them.
Lois and Marrion are strong characters. They feel like they've got real personalities, flaws, and motivations (admittedly, them being high school age means those motivations are very short-term focused, but at least HAVE motivations and that's more than most high-school aged characters in media are given). The flaws are really good ones, too. Marion has insecurity issues, which are pretty firmly set up as being a result of his relationship with his mother. Lois very clearly has anger issues, and though we don't get any clue as to where she gets them, there's no question that's her core character flaw. The best part, these two flaws play off each other well. Marion's insecurity manifests as not feeling good enough for his girlfriend, and her temper - and also now being significantly bigger and tougher than him - would egg that on. Meanwhile, the jealousy that his insecurity leads him to has the potential to annoy and anger her, feeding into her temper. That said, I like how Rick has managed to resist the urge to overplay the drama. There are so many stories that play relationship drama in a way that leads to frustratingly aggressive conflict. While that is not in and of itself bad, the fact that this is how it almost always leans means that I find it super refreshing that at least Lois is rational enough to be reasonable about it. It's nice to see relationship conflicts not lead to screaming for a change. Take note, Hollywood, screaming does not equal engaging drama.
Plus, this gives some weight to Kitsu's "that's not gonna give you what you need," line. In the big picture, what Marrion needs is to confront his feelings of inadequacy head-on and accept that it's totally alright for you to not be able to handle everything, and to need help sometimes. Becoming a squirrel, thereby becoming utterly at the mercy of the rest of the world, forces him to confront that, and gives him the opportunity to learn that life's little moments of joy don't come from control, but by learning to see the goodness in the world around you. I'm not sure how becoming a bobcat helps Lois with her anger issues, but this isn't going to be the last time we see them, so I expect we'll get the opportunity to find out.

I like how this is effecting Keene. His arc from day one has been a slow progression from self-absorbed dilettante, to overly-obsessed and goal-oriented at the expense of individuals, to actually being able to empathize with others. It finally feels like Keene is actually starting to realize that his actions matter on the small and personal level as well as the "don't accidentally implode the universe" level. He's showing genuine remorse for the consequences of his actions, not just deluding himself into thinking that he buy his way into redemption. It's been a long time coming, and it's well-earned.

Steward going over the edge is done in a satisfying way. It's pretty well established that Steward was just doing his job in the way he thought best. It was totally unreasonable for Keene to be so condescending to him, but that was Keene's character at the time. Steward may have had some unconscious biases at play, or maybe even when he was teaming up with Thomas, his end goal was to in some way keep the estate solvent. His turn to the dark side makes sense though, because what did all his efforts get him? His life was totally destroyed, forcing him to leave behind everything he'd built; his home, his career, his family - even if he wasn't married (we don't know, though if Rick will take a suggestion, that'd be a very good avenue to explore at some point), I assume he had parents and maybe brothers and sisters. All gone in an instant. And what was Keene's attitude towards it? Casual condescension and threats to send him to prison. In a way, Stewards transformation is also Keene's fault, because it can be assumed that HAD Steward known about the curse, he never would have attempted to retrieve the gold, regardless of his motives. Keene has flippantly trashed his life without ever once showing any appreciation for the actual hard work he was doing. The BUTLER gets more respect from Keene, and Keene once told the butler to stick his (Keene's) butt in the corner so he could do his business.
Yeah, after however much actual time has passed between then and now, I can totally see why Steward's resentment would drive him to the point of being willing to completely disregard other people's lives to get back at his old boss. He's in a headspace where nothing matters anymore, so all he knows how to do is lash out at the object of his increasingly irrational rage.
That said, there's room for a redemption arc for him, for those who are saying he's crossed the moral event horizon. Heck, there's more room for one now than there was before. His crimes before now were so small and petty that a redemption arc would have felt undeserved. Now he's got a real crime to atone for. And maybe, just maybe, Keene has finally become self-aware enough of his own personal failings to be able to pursue that. I would personally like that, though it's far from the only way his arc has to resolve to feel satisfying. We'll just have to wait and see where it goes from here.

Conclusion
Well, this arc has been exhausting. Not quite as much as Temple Crashers 2, but still quite the ride. Heaven's Not Enough still stands as what I think is the best executed single story, but it dragged less than Temple Crashers did and didn't climax in a way that shoved the characters we'd been following off to the side, so it feels more narratively satisfying on the whole. I still feel like this arc could have been paced better, but I'll be Bahamut-darned if I can figure out what it is that makes me feel that way. Any flaws I point out in it - aside from the superfluous TG element - are ones that require a deep dive into the muscle and grit of the story to even find, and that's always a gratifying step above most writing I come across. I'm satisfied with the end result and look forward to more.
But will be quite glad that the next story will probably focus on something less heavy and more mundane. These may be the parts of the story I live for, but you do need to have breaks from it every now and then.

And on a purely personal level that doesn't in any way reflect the quality of the story for good or ill, the promise of more animal tf in the future is always something I look forward to. Yeah, I know I go on about story structure and pacing, and I hold stories to really high standards of quality, but even I have my personal tastes that I'm always happy to see come into something.

Edited: because it took me almost an hour to realize I kept using the word "superfluous" when I meant "superficial."
Imagine my embarrassment. >.>
Last edited by Nobody on Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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VeryAngryDeer
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by VeryAngryDeer »

Nobody wrote:That said, there's room for a redemption arc for him, for those who are saying he's crossed the moral event horizon. Heck, there's more room for one now than there was before. His crimes before now were so small and petty that a redemption arc would have felt undeserved. Now he's got a real crime to atone for. And maybe, just maybe, Keene has finally become self-aware enough of his own personal failings to be able to pursue that. I would personally like that, though it's far from the only way his arc has to resolve to feel satisfying. We'll just have to wait and see where it goes from here.
I'm not sure there is a crime too small and petty for a redemption arc. Pettiness is a character flaw that can be overcome, and the journey to that can be interesting. Would an arc where Bino learns to be a better person seem at all out of place? Admittedly he's been in the picture since almost the beginning, but Marion and Lois were totally new characters and most people seemed invested in their story.

On the other side of the scale, a crime can definitely be too large to atone for. The reason I said "moral event horizon" is because that's the point in the story where a character has done something they cannot come back from. Steward might feel bad for what he did, or even regret it, but what can he possibly do to make it right? If he had a countercurse, he could fix the physical damage he did, and he'd be in roughly the same position as when Keene almost destroyed the world (but didn't.) He could be forgiven because the situation has returned to the status-quo (even if characters suffered when they otherwise wouldn't have.) But Steward does not have a counter-curse, and he knew at the time that what he was doing would cause permanent damage, and involved taking away Marion and Lois' human right to bodily integrity. He might as well have thrown acid in their faces. And now he's about to do it to "dozens and hundreds" more.


Any potential redemption arc would have to involve Steward suffering equivalent if not worse trauma in an effort to reverse what he has done. And he's got to succeed where the main cast (who have more resources, more people, more money, more knowledge, and access to a Celestial) have failed. If it comes down to solving it by going to Dragon's Temple, Steward can't even leave America. All this assumes that he will, at some point, decide that revenge isn't worth it after all. If he was going to come to that conclusion, he's already passed the point where it would make the most sense (meeting his victim and seeing the harm he caused.)

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think I will be.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by CuriousCnidarian »

Nobody wrote: {about the superfluous TG bit} That said, this isn't the direction Rick took, so instead we're just left with this oddity that serves only as a minor distraction that never really caused significant problems. It's just . . . there for no apparent reason.
I only started reading the comic at the tail end of this arc, and I only caught up to it shortly before the Christmas page was posted, so I didn't experience any of the pacing issues. But something still didn't sit right with me about this arc, and I think you nailed my feelings on the head here. The whole bit felt really unnecessary, and I can't tell if it's gonna 1. just act as something to set up minor unimportant jokes in the future, kinda like it was in this arc, or 2. it's going to be brought up in more of a major way in the future.

As an aside, this is looking like these tfs are gonna be permanent. I'd love to see some kind of TF that ultimately ended up being temporary, or a more important/prominent human character that, you know, stays human. Maybe if the curse on that treasure ever gets lifted, everyone affected by it changes back to normal. Whether they like it or not, just like how they were initially affected.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by Keeshah »

Dissension wrote:[ We Don't Need No Stinking Badger ]


2. Fox is gonna have sexy scars next time we see him, just sayin'.


Fox looks like Legosi now. (from Beaststars)
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by dr_eirik »

CuriousCnidarian wrote:
Nobody wrote: {about the superfluous TG bit} That said, this isn't the direction Rick took, so instead we're just left with this oddity that serves only as a minor distraction that never really caused significant problems. It's just . . . there for no apparent reason.
I only started reading the comic at the tail end of this arc, and I only caught up to it shortly before the Christmas page was posted, so I didn't experience any of the pacing issues. But something still didn't sit right with me about this arc, and I think you nailed my feelings on the head here. The whole bit felt really unnecessary, and I can't tell if it's gonna 1. just act as something to set up minor unimportant jokes in the future, kinda like it was in this arc, or 2. it's going to be brought up in more of a major way in the future.

As an aside, this is looking like these tfs are gonna be permanent. I'd love to see some kind of TF that ultimately ended up being temporary, or a more important/prominent human character that, you know, stays human. Maybe if the curse on that treasure ever gets lifted, everyone affected by it changes back to normal. Whether they like it or not, just like how they were initially affected.
The thing to remember is that this is not likely the end of their story, not even close. There are still a lot of unanswered questions, both big and small, that linger.

The TG stuff seems tacked on now, but might take a whole new importance later. Perhaps we find out later that the coin doesn't do TG, so it becomes what changed them. Or perhaps the change becomes important for some other reason, like a native squirrel relentless pursues Marion, or Lois turns out to be a rare, endangered species bobcat.

Or maybe it was a random idea from Rick and it will never come up in any serious capacity again. Given how long it took to close out Kings arc, it might be years before we get some resolution. I'll wait.
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Re: 2019/12/25 - We Don't Need No Stinking Badger

Post by GameCobra »

Keeshah wrote:
Dissension wrote:[ We Don't Need No Stinking Badger ]


2. Fox is gonna have sexy scars next time we see him, just sayin'.


Fox looks like Legosi now. (from Beaststars)


I'd peg him more of a Star Wolf.

Wait a minute.
Star Fox.
Fox gets a scar.
He's now Wolf.
Fox.
Wolf.
Fox.
Logic.
... Merry Christmas. *walks away from the forums for the day*

EDIT: *comes back* Patch is on the other eye. Crisis averted. This is getting too meta now. x3
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