2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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Welsh Halfwit wrote:
GameCobra wrote:Why do I get the feeling going to see King is not going to produce the expected results - because King very likely trashed or sold the statue at this point? X3
1. Indestructible.

2. If he sells it, it'll just come back.
It's true. How many times have you thrown a cursed ring into the deepest depths of the ocean, then when you get back home and have a cup of tea, there it is?

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Argent »

Nobody wrote:
Argent wrote:Don't forget that Pete promised "equivocation between human and animal kind", not "equality".
Where was this said? I can't find it in the archives.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Cesco »

Yep, that was you dad's wish, Keene, but transform humans into animals isn't the solution to have equal rights... :roll: So now you're going to Great Kitsune? And do you know where find him? I would also consider to go back to Thomas, to let him talk with Keene about his transforming and of the fact he saw a sort of hologram of Pete speaking to him in the temple... Oh, in five on a scooter. :P Keene doesn't need the sunglasses, though, there's already the windshield. He always wants to look cool. :D You're right, Poncho, but don't worry, in some parts of the world they already use so. ;)
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by NHWestoN »

Frank wrote:
NHWestoN wrote: Except for Thomas, of course. Santa can't stand him. Besides, Thomas is what Sofie wants for Christmas, and Santa likes Camels. ;)
Or the wish fulfillment department is staffed by reindeer and they get a kick out of seeing Thomas feel their pains

...or HP! shippers
Hmmmm, we don't have a reindeer in the cast yet, do we?

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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If we were gonna get one, it would really make more sense that it would happen more close to Christmas.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by tych »

I don't know why but Steppenwolf's Born to be Wild started playing in my head after reading this strip?

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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NHWestoN wrote:
Hmmmm, we don't have a reindeer in the cast yet, do we?
Yet.

Yet....
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by CunningFox »

Love that last panel. This arc is producing some great art.

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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VeryAngryDeer wrote:
fenrirblack wrote: Even if that is technically true, it makes more sense to assume Rick is basically putting the age old question to bed by purposely adding that line. Read between th lines do to speak but in this case out right saying this was Pete’s intent. Of course for the sake of story Keene can’t say for sure because that wouldn’t make sense but Rick in this manner can.
I don't think so. Its the same with Lois speculating that the transformations are contagious - just because a character says it in the comic, doesn't mean my speculations on the forum are true, no matter how much effort I put into talking about it.

Given that the Celestials have massive amounts of power to affect reality, and the Game allows them to interfere with free will on the basis that it must be for the affected person's own good... is it really more likely that Pete would turn everyone into animals rather than just change everyone's perceptions of human-animal relations?

On the other hand, its Henry Milton who made the deal with Pete. A man who wanted to be an animal so much that he goes around in Heaven with a ferret body. This is a man who I would not be surprisedif he just assumed that everyone would be like him and think being an animal was better than a human. Pete's deal with Henry could have been to turn everyone into animals, while Keene's modifications to the deal were to push it more to the socio-political changes.
It's not entirely the same because there is a lot more evidence to support the Pete thing versus the Lois thing. We can't wait around for someone to literally say "this was the plan all along" because that is never going to happen. This is the closest we're going to get to a definite answer to Pete's plan.

The problem with affecting perception is that they literally can't do that. How is changing peoples minds or memories that different from simply taking over and effecting their free will? They're still altering people's feelings and minds which as we've seen is illegal and impossible without consent. Besides its Pete, I doubt he would really put too much though or effort into coming up with a complex plan of socio-political nonsense versus just taking the simplest method, one that he has shown to be fond of as he has done it repeatedly so far.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Obbl »

Further on that note, since the game is over and Pete is locked in a mortal body for the next 60~ish years, there's no reason to keep us in the dark or feed us information about this that ultimately turns out to be untrue. Rick gains nothing by hiding it from us. It's good to be skeptical (and Keene pretty clearly doesn't know for certain), but especially given how straightforward Rick has been with this comic, odds are really good that Keene's intuition is correct
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by VeryAngryDeer »

fenrirblack wrote:
VeryAngryDeer wrote:-snip-
It's not entirely the same because there is a lot more evidence to support the Pete thing versus the Lois thing. We can't wait around for someone to literally say "this was the plan all along" because that is never going to happen. This is the closest we're going to get to a definite answer to Pete's plan.

The problem with affecting perception is that they literally can't do that. How is changing peoples minds or memories that different from simply taking over and effecting their free will? They're still altering people's feelings and minds which as we've seen is illegal and impossible without consent. Besides its Pete, I doubt he would really put too much though or effort into coming up with a complex plan of socio-political nonsense versus just taking the simplest method, one that he has shown to be fond of as he has done it repeatedly so far.
I disagree that there is more evidence. As others have noted, some of the evidence would even contradict your point.


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As I said; "the Game allows them to interfere with free will on the basis that it must be for the affected person's own good"

They absolutely can do that, and they can do it without consent, its just heavily restricted.

It looks like the simplest method, in that changing the socio-political situation would require more planning on Pete's part... but transforming everyone into animals is by no means guaranteed to fulfil the promise of equality, especially not in a reasonable amount of time. If Pete puts in the extra effort to make sure its done right first time, he won't have to come back and fix things if it goes wrong.

Pete transformed King because it was the most direct way to meet his goal of aquiring the right class of avatar. He put a transformation curse on the coins because he thought it was a funny way to interpret Henry Milton's request. Being a celestial with all eternity to work in, and a mind that operates on a level far above our own (supposedly, assuming he wasn't making everything about complex metaphors up on the previous page), Pete should have little trouble taking the more complex option if it means he doesn't have to worry about being indebted to a mortal.

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by fenrirblack »

VeryAngryDeer wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:
VeryAngryDeer wrote:-snip-
It's not entirely the same because there is a lot more evidence to support the Pete thing versus the Lois thing. We can't wait around for someone to literally say "this was the plan all along" because that is never going to happen. This is the closest we're going to get to a definite answer to Pete's plan.

The problem with affecting perception is that they literally can't do that. How is changing peoples minds or memories that different from simply taking over and effecting their free will? They're still altering people's feelings and minds which as we've seen is illegal and impossible without consent. Besides its Pete, I doubt he would really put too much though or effort into coming up with a complex plan of socio-political nonsense versus just taking the simplest method, one that he has shown to be fond of as he has done it repeatedly so far.
I disagree that there is more evidence. As others have noted, some of the evidence would even contradict your point.


As I said; "the Game allows them to interfere with free will on the basis that it must be for the affected person's own good"

They absolutely can do that, and they can do it without consent, its just heavily restricted.
That's still not interfering with the free will as much as the actions taken. It's more complicated than that. King said that Pete can't override his actions just the physical conditions around him as well as his body but not his mind. That is the difference. Pete could change the biology and even the landscape if he wanted but not who someone is or force them to act against their own desires. It's commonplace in stories for beings such as Pete to interfere with the surroundings and Influence someones actions but not those actions themselves. What Kitsune is referring to in that scene is that King is part of the Game and stuck as a dog but every choice he makes is still his own to choose. Pete and the rest altered King's situation but not his own ability to choose how to adapt and survive. If he wanted to run away and join the circus he could but he chose not to which again is part of his free will.

Argent has already pointed out that it was never "equality" in the first place.
Argent wrote:Don't forget that Pete promised "equivocation between human and animal kind", not "equality".
Google wrote:e·quiv·o·ca·tion /iˌkwivəˈkāSH(ə)n/ noun
the use of ambiguous language to conceal the truth or to avoid committing oneself; prevarication.
"I say this without equivocation"
Either he's not the smartest demigod in the pantheon or he was playing shenanigans with his followers from the start.
Pete chose his wording to get out of any potential legal trouble that he might find himself in which even at that point I doubt he would bother with considering the entire premise was that of a role-playing game.
Even later when Keene confronted him, Pete said he made "A promise" which never specified what that promise was at that point.

Even looking at it from a story telling perspective, changing the socio-political aspect of the world would be terrible stakes for the story and honestly would not be worth fighting against which again was the entire point of the Game story arc was to stop Pete from winning and therefore destroying the world as we know it.

Ask yourself this, what possible reason would Rick have for having Keene say that if wasn't true? Even as Obbl said, Rick gains nothing from hiding the actual terms of Pete's plan from us now that the Game arc is long over and Pete himself is practically done as a character now that he has transitioned to Craig. This is probably Rick's intent by having Keene say that in black and white.
Last edited by fenrirblack on Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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fenrirblack wrote:That's still not interfering with the free will as much as the actions taken. It's more complicated than that. King said that Pete can't override his actions just the physical conditions around him as well as his body but not his mind. That is the difference. Pete could change the biology and even the landscape if he wanted but not who someone is or force them to act against their own desires. It's commonplace in stories for beings such as Pete to interfere with the surroundings and Influence someones actions but not those actions themselves.
So what you are saying is that Pete could not be behind the transformations of Marion and Lois, but another Celestial could be? If so, then said Celestial probably has a grudge against humanity (or is Dino-Demon trying to make Keene happy).
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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Robotech_Master wrote:
Welsh Halfwit wrote:
LunarFox wrote:Well, if they go see GK, won't that mean the fox kits too?
No. Keene doesn't know Kitsune's 'helping' their Mom, nor that he's also got a Kidsune form. He DOES know King has that 'statue' that Kitsune likes to use...
Or does he? I mean, he did mention it while hanging out at Keene's hot tub party. Keene wasn't in that strip, but they could have met up sometime off-panel during that affair.

I suppose we'll find out on Monday whether Keene goes to the tree, or to King's place. I'm personally betting on the tree.

I like Rick's talent of having characters Suddenly Shouting like Creig demonstrates in the mentioned strip.

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Startrekfan47 »

Welsh Halfwit wrote:
LunarFox wrote:Well, if they go see GK, won't that mean the fox kits too?
No. Keene doesn't know Kitsune's 'helping' their Mom, nor that he's also got a Kidsune form. He DOES know King has that 'statue' that Kitsune likes to use...

...or does he?

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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Startrekfan47 wrote:
Welsh Halfwit wrote:
LunarFox wrote:Well, if they go see GK, won't that mean the fox kits too?
No. Keene doesn't know Kitsune's 'helping' their Mom, nor that he's also got a Kidsune form. He DOES know King has that 'statue' that Kitsune likes to use...

...or does he?
It is interesting because Keene has never personally met Kitsune as far as we've seen in the comic or spoken to one another. Any relationship they have happened off panel so there is no guarantee where they will end up. For comedic purposes, the wolf house. For narrative purposes, the treehouse.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by dr_eirik »

Interestingly enough, the only one on that scooter who has met Kitsune is Breel, they crossed paths in the temple. I would say they are going to the wolf house since Keene should be aware of the statue. There is an outside chance they are headed to visit Tarot or Sabrina. I think, for now m, the treehouse is out unless they are drawn there.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Amazee Dayzee »

I'm a bit worried about Keene sitting in front of Poncho while he is trying to drive that electric scooter and also with how many people are on it. It looks like it could fall over or Poncho could crash at any minute!
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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VeryAngryDeer wrote:It looks like the simplest method, in that changing the socio-political situation would require more planning on Pete's part... but transforming everyone into animals is by no means guaranteed to fulfill the promise of equality, especially not in a reasonable amount of time. If Pete puts in the extra effort to make sure its done right first time, he won't have to come back and fix things if it goes wrong.
On top of how convenient it would be for him, a large part about the dispute was how quickly the equalizing would be happening. Pete was of the stance that change should be fast.
fenrirblack wrote:That's still not interfering with the free will as much as the actions taken. It's more complicated than that. King said that Pete can't override his actions just the physical conditions around him as well as his body but not his mind. That is the difference. Pete could change the biology and even the landscape if he wanted but not who someone is or force them to act against their own desires. It's commonplace in stories for beings such as Pete to interfere with the surroundings and Influence someones actions but not those actions themselves. What Kitsune is referring to in that scene is that King is part of the Game and stuck as a dog but every choice he makes is still his own to choose. Pete and the rest altered King's situation but not his own ability to choose how to adapt and survive. If he wanted to run away and join the circus he could but he chose not to which again is part of his free will.
Your definition of free will is too narrow. This is what Rick Griffin said on the matter. Additionally, "the free will and agency rule" was part of the duel. It might not matter anyway if the plan was to fulfill the promise after he won.
fenrirblack wrote:Argent has already pointed out that it was never "equality" in the first place.
Argent wrote:Don't forget that Pete promised "equivocation between human and animal kind", not "equality".
Google wrote:e·quiv·o·ca·tion /iˌkwivəˈkāSH(ə)n/ noun
the use of ambiguous language to conceal the truth or to avoid committing oneself; prevarication.
"I say this without equivocation"
Either he's not the smartest demigod in the pantheon or he was playing shenanigans with his followers from the start.
rickgriffin wrote:Pete’s promise was to equalize man and animal. This is a broad sort of promise, and he had all intention of keeping it; he would not care to make a promise to mortals that he didn’t want to do (even if it’s crazy), because why would he need to.
It must have been slip of the tongue by Pete there because in other instances (to name a few) they talk about real equality. It's possible the woodland critters misinterpreted Pete, but there's no reason for Dragon to be at odds with Pete about "equivocation".
fenrirblack wrote:Pete chose his wording to get out of any potential legal trouble that he might find himself in
rickgriffin wrote:It’s more a legal obligation than an escape clause.
fenrirblack wrote:Even looking at it from a story telling perspective, changing the socio-political aspect of the world would be terrible stakes for the story and honestly would not be worth fighting against which again was the entire point of the Game story arc was to stop Pete from winning and therefore destroying the world as we know it.
You're thinking to grandiose again. The stakes of the game were never to save the world. As Sabrina says, "Think of it as two sides of a football game. You can take it seriously if you want [but it's not]... Just because there's two sides doesn't mean they're good and evil." The stakes were more personal. The reason Heaven's Not Enough, part 3 happened (other than because King would never turn down an opportunity to spite Pete) was only because King was afraid being Pete's avatar would "irrnversably affect her" It's backwards to assume there must be a world level threat to have a good conflict then make up one and call it evidence.
fenrirblack wrote:Ask yourself this, what possible reason would Rick have for having Keene say that if wasn't true?
It makes it crystal clear that changing everyone into animals was not Keene's plan with the mana as it has been firmly established keene doesn't agree with what he though Pete's plan was and it also helps take the discussion from talking about the source of Lois and Marion's transformation to the subject of visiting Great Kitsune.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by VeryAngryDeer »

fenrirblack wrote:-snip-
King saying that is another example of a character speculating in-universe, without out-of-universe knowledge. He could be right or wrong, and Pete trapshim in the cage because its what King dared him to do. Given that Kitsune specifically says "your choice can be overridden", I think that proves my point.

I think King being unable to say his human name didn't fall under the "for your own good" clause, because it happened entirely because Pete didn't want King to go telling everyone who he really was, and getting himself sent backto prison so he could ride out the Game in peace.

Others have responded to the equivocation and legal points.

It would beworth fighting against changing the socio-political status because, while the Game allows your free will to be overridden in certain cases, most people still wouldn't want their free-will to be overridden. It sets a bad precedent. Utopia does not justify the means.

The point of the story arc was "Pete is an insufferable nerd and will mess everyone around, Dragon is an insecure control freak who will mess everyone around, can we please get both of these basement-dwellers to stop faffing around with our lives?"

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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Y'all ever wonder how it feels to misunderstand what a word means and have people base their opinion of a character on that and bring it up constantly?
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

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Dissension wrote:Y'all ever wonder how it feels to misunderstand what a word means and have people base their opinion of a character on that and bring it up constantly?
like that ancient fifties horror movie, it becomes "The Beast That Would Not Die!".

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Argent »

Champion Wallace wrote:It must have been slip of the tongue by Pete there because in other instances (to name a few) they talk about real equality.
The first example involves about the most unreliable witnesses in the book other than perhaps Bino. The second is still second hand, you can't assume Dragon knows exactly what he promised Henry Milton. All we know from the second is that if Pete was being sneaky in the wording he's not dumb enough to reveal it when he doesn't need to.
Dissension wrote:Y'all ever wonder how it feels to misunderstand what a word means and have people base their opinion of a character on that and bring it up constantly?
I've brought it up twice now, as far as I can recall, and my opinion of Pete was already pretty much set by that point.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by NHWestoN »

Startrekfan47 wrote:
Welsh Halfwit wrote:
LunarFox wrote:Well, if they go see GK, won't that mean the fox kits too?
No. Keene doesn't know Kitsune's 'helping' their Mom, nor that he's also got a Kidsune form. He DOES know King has that 'statue' that Kitsune likes to use...

...or does he?
Well, if they're going to see Kitsune, I'd assume they'd go to King's house where the statue is kept. How Lois concluded Kitsune was involved, I do not know. I also don't know how Keene would know about King's statue. More mysteries for Monday maybe...……. ;)

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Welsh Halfwit »

NHWestoN wrote: Well, if they're going to see Kitsune, I'd assume they'd go to King's house where the statue is kept. How Lois concluded Kitsune was involved, I do not know. I also don't know how Keene would know about King's statue. More mysteries for Monday maybe...……. ;)
I don't think she's concluded that he's involved. She's been told a demi-god's involved and, of the ones that were here, only Kitsune is available. He MIGHT provide an answer.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by fenrirblack »

Champion Wallace wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:That's still not interfering with the free will as much as the actions taken. It's more complicated than that. King said that Pete can't override his actions just the physical conditions around him as well as his body but not his mind. That is the difference. Pete could change the biology and even the landscape if he wanted but not who someone is or force them to act against their own desires. It's commonplace in stories for beings such as Pete to interfere with the surroundings and Influence someones actions but not those actions themselves. What Kitsune is referring to in that scene is that King is part of the Game and stuck as a dog but every choice he makes is still his own to choose. Pete and the rest altered King's situation but not his own ability to choose how to adapt and survive. If he wanted to run away and join the circus he could but he chose not to which again is part of his free will.
Your definition of free will is too narrow. This is what Rick Griffin said on the matter. Additionally, "the free will and agency rule" was part of the duel. It might not matter anyway if the plan was to fulfill the promise after he won.
On the topic of Rick‘s example there, Pete basically did that very thing with keeping King from saying “Joel” but Kitsune put a stop to it which says that even that level of control was unacceptable.
Champion Wallace wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:Even looking at it from a story telling perspective, changing the socio- aspect of the world would be terrible stakes for the story and honestly would not be worth fighting against which again was the entire point of the Game story arc was to stop Pete from winning and therefore destroying the world as we know it.
You're thinking to grandiose again. The stakes of the game were never to save the world. As Sabrina says, "Think of it as two sides of a football game. You can take it seriously if you want [but it's not]... Just because there's two sides doesn't mean they're good and evil." The stakes were more personal. The reason Heaven's Not Enough, part 3 happened (other than because King would never turn down an opportunity to spite Pete) was only because King was afraid being Pete's avatar would "irrnversably affect her" It's backwards to assume there must be a world level threat to have a good conflict then make up one and call it evidence.
Whether or not hybrid motives for stopping it were to save the world or not is not the point. What would have happened if Pete won? He would have kept his promise which would have caused chaos. King and most of them didn’t know if this fact but that doesn’t mean that those stakes weren’t there. It was established that if Pete won it would have been bad no matter what he would have ended up doing. Again Keene said that was Pete’s plan and it would have been chaos so there is evidence in the comic.
Shifting gears for a second, the stakes of Kong’s fear or Bailey in danger can barely qualify because there is little evidence that Bailey would have been affected and King “saving her” at the last second, noble as it was, seemed redundant considering it was almost over anyway. By not raising the stakes higher (or at all) then the entire Game arc was a huge waste of time because none of it would have mattered in the grand Scheme. It would have ended, everyone would go home a little worse for wear, and King would still probably make the choice to stay a dog.

Champion Wallace wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:Ask yourself this, what possible reason would Rick have for having Keene say that if wasn't true?
It makes it crystal clear that changing everyone into animals was not Keene's plan with the mana as it has been firmly established keene doesn't agree with what he though Pete's plan was and it also helps take the discussion from talking about the source of Lois and Marion's transformation to the subject of visiting Great Kitsune.
That could have been done a million different ways but Rick worded it the way he did to purposely tell us something.
VeryAngryDeer wrote: King saying that is another example of a character speculating in-universe, without out-of-universe knowledge. He could be right or wrong, and Pete trapshim in the cage because its what King dared him to do. Given that Kitsune specifically says "your choice can be overridden", I think that proves my point.
Kitsune practically did say it when he told Pete he couldn’t just take over Kong’s mind without consent.
That quote is about the Playing the Game. Jigsaw could say that exact same thing when he’s about to kill someone and say “it’s for your own good.” If you put someone in a life threatening situation or hold them against their will and call it “good for them” that doesn’t mean that they can’t fight back or resist.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Amazee Dayzee »

Are we sure its a good idea to compare Jigsaw to Kitsune for this example? One of them is a trickster who wouldn't maliciously hurt anyone and the other puts people in traps to teach them a lesson but ends up killing them. :|
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by fenrirblack »

I’m comparing Pete to Jigsaw. Kitsune is more like the audience and watching to see how it ends even though he already knows.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Amazee Dayzee »

Surprisingly I feel that doesn't work either because I don't think Pete would have actually put King in a situation that KILLED him.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Champion Wallace »

Argent wrote:
Champion Wallace wrote:It must have been slip of the tongue by Pete there because in other instances (to name a few) they talk about real equality.
The first example involves about the most unreliable witnesses in the book other than perhaps Bino. The second is still second hand, you can't assume Dragon knows exactly what he promised Henry Milton. All we know from the second is that if Pete was being sneaky in the wording he's not dumb enough to reveal it when he doesn't need to.
From what Dissension said I think we can put this to rest with what Pete said in the trial in heaven was supposed to mean equality. I didn't even realize it didn't technically until you pointed it out.
fenrirblack wrote:Whether or not hybrid motives for stopping it were to save the world or not is not the point. What would have happened if Pete won? He would have kept his promise which would have caused chaos. King and most of them didn’t know if this fact but that doesn’t mean that those stakes weren’t there. It was established that if Pete won it would have been bad no matter what he would have ended up doing. Again Keene said that was Pete’s plan and it would have been chaos so there is evidence in the comic.
If you do in fact think changing the socio- aspect of the world would lead to chaos, would've been bad for the world, and were present stakes, then why did you say if would not be worth fighting against and terrible stakes for the story? You're contradicting yourself.
fenrirblack wrote:Shifting gears for a second, the stakes of King’s fear or Bailey in danger can barely qualify because there is little evidence that Bailey would have been affected and King “saving her” at the last second, noble as it was, seemed redundant considering it was almost over anyway. By not raising the stakes higher (or at all) then the entire Game arc was a huge waste of time because none of it would have mattered in the grand Scheme. It would have ended, everyone would go home a little worse for wear, and King would still probably make the choice to stay a dog.
Looking back from a logical standpoint I think King made the wrong choice to intervene and end the game for reasons you said plus a few others. However, I forgive King because you can't expect your heroes to act logically all the time. The best tragic heroes are those that think they're doing something noble but because of factors they don't know or wont accept it's not. I strongly disagree that the entire Game arc was a huge waste of time. Sometimes a story is about the journey more then the destination. Calling it a waste of time would devalue all the fun of reading the arcs that came before Heaven's Not Enough.
fenrirblack wrote:
Champion Wallace wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:Ask yourself this, what possible reason would Rick have for having Keene say that if wasn't true?
It makes it crystal clear that changing everyone into animals was not Keene's plan with the mana as it has been firmly established keene doesn't agree with what he though Pete's plan was and it also helps take the discussion from talking about the source of Lois and Marion's transformation to the subject of visiting Great Kitsune.
That could have been done a million different ways but Rick worded it the way he did to purposely tell us something.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by VeryAngryDeer »

fenrirblack wrote:
VeryAngryDeer wrote: King saying that is another example of a character speculating in-universe, without out-of-universe knowledge. He could be right or wrong, and Pete trapshim in the cage because its what King dared him to do. Given that Kitsune specifically says "your choice can be overridden", I think that proves my point.
Kitsune practically did say it when he told Pete he couldn’t just take over Kong’s mind without consent.
That quote is about the Playing the Game. Jigsaw could say that exact same thing when he’s about to kill someone and say “it’s for your own good.” If you put someone in a life threatening situation or hold them against their will and call it “good for them” that doesn’t mean that they can’t fight back or resist.
I was going to make a point about how total mind-control can't really be seen as being for someone's own good...

... but then I started wondering who in-universe is deciding what counts as "for your own good". In terms of the Game, it would be Kitsune's job to do that... but he's also supposed to be impartial, so how do you stay impartial when you're supposed to be making decisions about something as subjective as morality? Are they all working on an agreed morality created by a being higher on the divine totem pole than them?


Anyway, I'm not sure what your point is about Jigsaw. Unless he was a Celestial in the Housepets universe, it doesn't seem relevant. And the whole point was about changing someone's will - its rather difficult to resist that after the fact.

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Obbl »

Argent wrote:
Dissension wrote:Y'all ever wonder how it feels to misunderstand what a word means and have people base their opinion of a character on that and bring it up constantly?
I've brought it up twice now, as far as I can recall, and my opinion of Pete was already pretty much set by that point.
You're not the only one to bring it up, and it's already been explained to you (and to everyone generally) that this was a writer's error, so you can kindly stop bringing it up as if it means anything in the comic universe.
Champion Wallace wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:Ask yourself this, what possible reason would Rick have for having Keene say that if wasn't true?
.
.
.
Not everything has a triple meaning. If you look too far into something all you'll see is yourself. You can't always craft the perfect thing to say with both flow and no ambiguity every time.
Saying that we should take Keene's assumption as literal truth is hardly an example of triple meaning. In fact it's literally the simplest reading. And I've reread the conversation between you two like a half dozen times to make sure I'm not missing something, but yeah, Fenrir is saying take the most basic reading of Keene's statement as truth from the author. It's fine to be skeptical, but Fenrir's is also a very valid reading of it, and extremely hard to argue against :P
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by fenrirblack »

VeryAngryDeer wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:
VeryAngryDeer wrote: King saying that is another example of a character speculating in-universe, without out-of-universe knowledge. He could be right or wrong, and Pete trapshim in the cage because its what King dared him to do. Given that Kitsune specifically says "your choice can be overridden", I think that proves my point.
Kitsune practically did say it when he told Pete he couldn’t just take over Kong’s mind without consent.
That quote is about the Playing the Game. Jigsaw could say that exact same thing when he’s about to kill someone and say “it’s for your own good.” If you put someone in a life threatening situation or hold them against their will and call it “good for them” that doesn’t mean that they can’t fight back or resist.
I was going to make a point about how total mind-control can't really be seen as being for someone's own good...

... but then I started wondering who in-universe is deciding what counts as "for your own good". In terms of the Game, it would be Kitsune's job to do that... but he's also supposed to be impartial, so how do you stay impartial when you're supposed to be making decisions about something as subjective as morality? Are they all working on an agreed morality created by a being higher on the divine totem pole than them?


Anyway, I'm not sure what your point is about Jigsaw. Unless he was a Celestial in the Housepets universe, it doesn't seem relevant. And the whole point was about changing someone's will - its rather difficult to resist that after the fact.
For your own good is biassed no matter how you look at it. In King's case it was for own good because his life was a total dumpster fire and he benefited substantially from it which was Kitsune's goal or part of his overall plan. The easiest thing to say is that if the individual is happier, healthier, and generally better off after the fact then it was "for their own good."

The point about Jigsaw was that there is a difference between forcing someone to do something physically versus using supernatural powers. Jigsaw was an example for someone using force in a physical sense which is basically what Pete was doing to King and calling it "for their own good." Getting back to the original original point, another way of saying it would be external manipulation of one's will versus internal. Pete and the other celestials can alter the external stimuli to force someone to act against their will but not internally manipulating them at least without consent.
Champion Wallace wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:Shifting gears for a second, the stakes of King’s fear or Bailey in danger can barely qualify because there is little evidence that Bailey would have been affected and King “saving her” at the last second, noble as it was, seemed redundant considering it was almost over anyway. By not raising the stakes higher (or at all) then the entire Game arc was a huge waste of time because none of it would have mattered in the grand Scheme. It would have ended, everyone would go home a little worse for wear, and King would still probably make the choice to stay a dog.
Looking back from a logical standpoint I think King made the wrong choice to intervene and end the game for reasons you said plus a few others. However, I forgive King because you can't expect your heroes to act logically all the time. The best tragic heroes are those that think they're doing something noble but because of factors they don't know or wont accept it's not. I strongly disagree that the entire Game arc was a huge waste of time. Sometimes a story is about the journey more then the destination. Calling it a waste of time would devalue all the fun of reading the arcs that came before Heaven's Not Enough.
Poor choice of words on my part because I forgot about something super important that you reminded me of and that is the entire journey developed and grew King's character which was accomplished not to mention the other characters that were developed along side him. No matter how it ended, King was developed far from when he first appeared as Joel.
Champion Wallace wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:Whether or not hybrid motives for stopping it were to save the world or not is not the point. What would have happened if Pete won? He would have kept his promise which would have caused chaos. King and most of them didn’t know if this fact but that doesn’t mean that those stakes weren’t there. It was established that if Pete won it would have been bad no matter what he would have ended up doing. Again Keene said that was Pete’s plan and it would have been chaos so there is evidence in the comic.
If you do in fact think changing the socio- aspect of the world would lead to chaos, would've been bad for the world, and were present stakes, then why did you say if would not be worth fighting against and terrible stakes for the story? You're contradicting yourself.
I don't think there ever was a socio-whatever change because that doesn't even exist. There was never a mention that was the ever the plan. Say what you want about Keene's assumption but that is more relevant because it is mentioned and nothing else was as far as what Pete intended to do if he won and kept his promise to "equalize humans and animals".
Last edited by fenrirblack on Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by SeanWolf »

Personally? I THINK we're all honestly looking too deep into this whole arc to find some hidden clues or reasoning behind certain events. Is it fun to speculate? Yeah, I mean I've done it a few times myself (Heck, I like making readers of my stories speculate as to what would happen next and such). But, lately (especially with this series of arcs with Lois and Marion), we've REALLY been turning into speculators and 'Finders Of Hidden Meanings'. Just saying...


Now back to the topic of this strip in particular: Some reason, I am picturing music from 'The Great Race' on the last picture :)
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by VeryAngryDeer »

fenrirblack wrote:For your own good is biassed no matter how you look at it. In King's case it was for own good because his life was a total dumpster fire and he benefited substantially from it which was Kitsune's goal or part of his overall plan. The easiest thing to say is that if the individual is happier, healthier, and generally better off after the fact then it was "for their own good."

The point about Jigsaw was that there is a difference between forcing someone to do something physically versus using supernatural powers. Jigsaw was an example for someone using force in a physical sense which is basically what Pete was doing to King and calling it "for their own good." Getting back to the original original point, another way of saying it would be external manipulation of one's will versus internal. Pete and the other celestials can alter the external stimuli to force someone to act against their will but not internally manipulating them at least without consent.
Except that the Celestials' consent argument started over whether or not Pete was allowed to transform King against his wishes. Its not said that the consent rule applies differently between mind and environment. So despite my earlier meanderings, I'm pretty sure Pete going for total mind control was against the rules because it didn't make King a better person in any way.

Based on that, I think the socio-political change would be a viable solution to Pete's promise because it does fall under the "for your own good" rules exemption. Making people not be bigots against animals would leave them happier, healthier and generally better off. The only problem is that people wouldn't like having their mind changed, but the rules as they've been explained don't care about that.
SeanWolf wrote:Personally? I THINK we're all honestly looking too deep into this whole arc to find some hidden clues or reasoning behind certain events. Is it fun to speculate? Yeah, I mean I've done it a few times myself (Heck, I like making readers of my stories speculate as to what would happen next and such). But, lately (especially with this series of arcs with Lois and Marion), we've REALLY been turning into speculators and 'Finders Of Hidden Meanings'. Just saying...
There is a point where we needed to stop andwe haveclearly passed it

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Argent »

Obbl wrote:it's already been explained to you (and to everyone generally) that this was a writer's error
Before this thread? Google says I actually brought it up three times and I can't find any comments like that after any of them until now.

And that's definitely not why I don't trust Pete.
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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Nobody »

I have been rereading the comic again and I suddenly find myself hearing Keene's voice as the voice of Charles Dance, pitch shifted into the squeaky range.

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by NHWestoN »

VeryAngryDeer wrote:
fenrirblack wrote:For your own good is biassed no matter how you look at it. In King's case it was for own good because his life was a total dumpster fire and he benefited substantially from it which was Kitsune's goal or part of his overall plan. The easiest thing to say is that if the individual is happier, healthier, and generally better off after the fact then it was "for their own good."

The point about Jigsaw was that there is a difference between forcing someone to do something physically versus using supernatural powers. Jigsaw was an example for someone using force in a physical sense which is basically what Pete was doing to King and calling it "for their own good." Getting back to the original original point, another way of saying it would be external manipulation of one's will versus internal. Pete and the other celestials can alter the external stimuli to force someone to act against their will but not internally manipulating them at least without consent.
Except that the Celestials' consent argument started over whether or not Pete was allowed to transform King against his wishes. Its not said that the consent rule applies differently between mind and environment. So despite my earlier meanderings, I'm pretty sure Pete going for total mind control was against the rules because it didn't make King a better person in any way.

Based on that, I think the socio-political change would be a viable solution to Pete's promise because it does fall under the "for your own good" rules exemption. Making people not be bigots against animals would leave them happier, healthier and generally better off. The only problem is that people wouldn't like having their mind changed, but the rules as they've been explained don't care about that.
SeanWolf wrote:Personally? I THINK we're all honestly looking too deep into this whole arc to find some hidden clues or reasoning behind certain events. Is it fun to speculate? Yeah, I mean I've done it a few times myself (Heck, I like making readers of my stories speculate as to what would happen next and such). But, lately (especially with this series of arcs with Lois and Marion), we've REALLY been turning into speculators and 'Finders Of Hidden Meanings'. Just saying...
There is a point where we needed to stop andwe haveclearly passed it

lets keep going and see what happens
Monday will come. Always has so far. ;)

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Nobody »

NHWestoN wrote:Monday will come. Always has so far. ;)
But will it come soon enough for me poor, old 'eart?

Actually, yeah, probably. Now that I know we're edging towards a resolution, I'm handling the tension much better. Me poor, old 'eart will probably be fine.

Probably.

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Re: 2019/11/29 - Road Trip

Post by Amazee Dayzee »

If you are worried that your heart will give out, then you should probably eat a bit more heart healthy foods so that it doesn't like salmon and avacados. :D
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