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Arc #63 Temple Crashers 
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
we didn't create the ants. The analogy still stands.

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Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:47 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
My analogy is more applicable to this situation as we are talking about three Sapient species here. However going with your analogy, no morally we really don't, just because we do it doesn't mean its right. I mean by your analogy, to bring up other comics (since this is a comic strip after all), The Fantastic 4 had no right to stop Galactus, or the Celestials (which IMO are the best possible analogy to the Nerds) or a bunch of other things because they were basically divine beings. (and Galactus actually has a good reason for doing what hes doing unlike the Nerds)

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Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:04 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
I don't think either of us were using the ant analogy to excuse the cosmic nerds. We were using it to say that they don't really care that they don't have the right, they're in a position of power over us and could do anything they want if they weren't governed by rules enforced by equally or even more powerful beings.

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Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:21 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
RandomGeekNamedBrent wrote:
I don't think either of us were using the ant analogy to excuse the cosmic nerds. We were using it to say that they don't really care that they don't have the right, they're in a position of power over us and could do anything they want if they weren't governed by rules enforced by equally or even more powerful beings.


Oh ok then so we agree that they shouldn't be doing this. See I think my dislike for this stuff is basically because (assuming I basically knew what was going on and they didn't lie to me) if this (or something similar) ever happened my first instinct would be "Screw this game over as much as you possibly can, and get rid of them as fast as you can."

Edit: Now that I think about it the only one who is doing the rational thing about any of this so far has been King really.

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Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:44 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
If you get right down to it, half of the things human beings do isn't morally "right". So are we really in any place to be criticizing celestial beings (fictional ones, at that) for abusing their place of power?

Also, I like how even Pete doesn't understand how Karishad keeps getting into the temple. :p

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Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:31 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
IceKitsune wrote:
Oh ok then so we agree that they shouldn't be doing this. See I think my dislike for this stuff is basically because (assuming I basically knew what was going on and they didn't lie to me) if this (or something similar) ever happened my first instinct would be "Screw this game over as much as you possibly can, and get rid of them as fast as you can."

Edit: Now that I think about it the only one who is doing the rational thing about any of this so far has been King really.

Alternatively, you decide there's not a lot you can do about it anyway and play by their rules.
To me it's not a huge deal. Like GK said, Because you exist you are playing by rules you didn't agree to. What's the difference if a bunch of superbeings happen to also be playing in the world? Especially when they don't have any designs to completely screw things over.

Though this catastrophe is new information. But still Pete's taking the "all's well that ends well"/"ends justify the means" philosophy, which is definite moral grey area and not always easy to determine the best course of action.

I really have no problem with these people. So far they have not done anything I consider outside the bounds of moral reprehensibility.

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Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:33 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Obbl wrote:
Alternatively, you decide there's not a lot you can do about it anyway and play by their rules.
To me it's not a huge deal. Like GK said, Because you exist you are playing by rules you didn't agree to. What's the difference if a bunch of superbeings happen to also be playing in the world? Especially when they don't have any designs to completely screw things over.

Though this catastrophe is new information. But still Pete's taking the "all's well that ends well"/"ends justify the means" philosophy, which is definite moral grey area and not always easy to determine the best course of action.

I really have no problem with these people. So far they have not done anything I consider outside the bounds of moral reprehensibility.


Or you can refuse to play and expose them, gathering enough support that while you might not be able to get them to stop completely you could at least get them to leave you alone. (Because baring banishment or killing them that's basically the best you could really hope for) I mean what are they going to do if everyone in Babylon Gardens refuses to play with them? (or at least so many that it would matter) If they mind control everyone to play then whats the fun in that.

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Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:48 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Who else but King has any reason whatsoever to want to stop the game? The worst it's done for anyone else is put them in the right place at the right time to get them into a good relationship. And even with King, while you can understand his frustration, it's hardly debatable that his life has improved substantionally due to the effects of the game.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
IceKitsune wrote:
Or you can refuse to play and expose them, gathering enough support that while you might not be able to get them to stop completely you could at least get them to leave you alone. (Because baring banishment or killing them that's basically the best you could really hope for) I mean what are they going to do if everyone in Babylon Gardens refuses to play with them? (or at least so many that it would matter) If they mind control everyone to play then whats the fun in that.


They ain't mind controlling, they are guiding. huge difference. The other thing is though is even if they were to be exposed, it's highly unlikely that everyone could stop them from what they are doing since it would more than likely require something of equal force to stop them. Cue Godzilla.

But why stop them? They haven't done anything bad with the exception of Pete driving King personally nuts. As far as being guided hands in the relationships that followed, the only bad thing they have done is possibly averted a lonesome, frictional disaster with Peanut by introducing him to Tarot.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
IceKitsune wrote:
Or you can refuse to play and expose them, gathering enough support that while you might not be able to get them to stop completely you could at least get them to leave you alone.

yeah. that would go over well. "we're all game pieces in a cosmic game of D&D being played by a dragon, a griffon, and a nine-tailed fox"
people are bound to believe you.

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Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:52 pm
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
KJOokami wrote:
Who else but King has any reason whatsoever to want to stop the game? The worst it's done for anyone else is put them in the right place at the right time to get them into a good relationship. And even with King, while you can understand his frustration, it's hardly debatable that his life has improved substantionally due to the effects of the game.


For now, for now...

For the record, I do believe that to some degree or another, the Nerds are all full of it. Pete has demonstrated that he's desperate enough to say or do anything, Dragon is manipulative, and has in fact lied/stretched the truth on more than one occasion, and even Kitsune has been shown to have an overly "chill, man" attitude. With the exception of Kitsune, I think they can't be trusted.

That and I have a rather dim view on trickster figures, and don't like the idea that they could have free reign of this world. More or less.


Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:47 pm
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
GameCobra wrote:
IceKitsune wrote:
Or you can refuse to play and expose them, gathering enough support that while you might not be able to get them to stop completely you could at least get them to leave you alone. (Because baring banishment or killing them that's basically the best you could really hope for) I mean what are they going to do if everyone in Babylon Gardens refuses to play with them? (or at least so many that it would matter) If they mind control everyone to play then whats the fun in that.


They ain't mind controlling, they are guiding. huge difference. The other thing is though is even if they were to be exposed, it's highly unlikely that everyone could stop them from what they are doing since it would more than likely require something of equal force to stop them. Cue Godzilla.

But why stop them? They haven't done anything bad with the exception of Pete driving King personally nuts. As far as being guided hands in the relationships that followed, the only bad thing they have done is possibly averted a lonesome, frictional disaster with Peanut by introducing him to Tarot.


No I didn't mean they were mind controlling people now I mean that if everyone decided to stop playing that would be the only way they could continue the game logically.

I don't really think that Grape is going to be happy with what is going on since I think its likely Max has been in on this whole thing the entire time. I mean think back to The Game arc in the beginning of the comic and look at how she reacted to that or how she told Peanut that she doesn't want to hear about Dragon and magic and stuff in We're Snowed In!. I'm sorry I don't see her taking this lightly really, even if Max isn't in on it so she would have a reason as well. As for Peanut and Tarot that is a separate issue that would bring up to much here. (which has more to do with how they are portrayed and less with the fact that they are dating)

Plus I'm hesitant to talk about the issues I still have with that, because I sometimes think the problems I find with it (and the character of Tarot herself) might actually be intentional by Rick at this point. I'm just not sure which it is anymore.

RandomGeekNamedBrent wrote:
IceKitsune wrote:
Or you can refuse to play and expose them, gathering enough support that while you might not be able to get them to stop completely you could at least get them to leave you alone.

yeah. that would go over well. "we're all game pieces in a cosmic game of D&D being played by a dragon, a griffon, and a nine-tailed fox"
people are bound to believe you.


By expose them I mean, you know, prove that they exist and what they are doing Brent, not just randomly tell people about it.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
I wonder why Pete has such a fascination with the mortals. Why would he bother with them at all? Why make promises to them? Why involve himself in matters which do not concern him? There must be a reason why he got himself into this situation, he could have avoided the whole fiasco regarding his feud with the Spirit Dragon, did he willingly walk straight into it?

Though, trying to create real equality on their world is a noble goal, and Pete working toward that end surely is a good thing. Now that we know Pete wants to force a change onto their world, what is the Spirit Dragon's alternative? The humans and animals of their world will not do anything on their own initiative (especially if Henry needed the help of a god-like being), so the Spirit Dragon must have a different plan to change the way things remain, or perhaps she has no faith in humanity or their world as a whole.

And, one last point, the throne suits Pete, don't you think? Makes him look very majestic and regal, and the fact he is surrounded by gold means that he's rich! If all that gold is thousands of years old, a single coin could be worth tens of thousands of pounds (or dollars), but since gold is less than useless for an immortal lifeform, he must keep it for his Avatars since they are really the only ones that need the resources.


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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Also:

So that's the feud, huh? It's official then: This IS Babylon 5 now. Pete's the Shadows and Dragon's the Vorlons. One wants chaos and evolution, one wants order, preservation and obedience. It's a conflict as old as time itself, maybe.

One problem, though: the ends do NOT justify the means! I am hoping there is some kind of real justice to all of this.

EDIT: Though some of you make some good sounding arguments, which kind of scares me... I'm confused...


Last edited by PhoenixAsper on Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:53 pm
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
PhoenixAsper wrote:
Also:

So that's the feud, huh? It's official then: This IS Babylon 5 now. Pete's the Shadows and Dragon's the Vorlons. One wants chaos and evolution, one wants order, preservation and obedience. It's a conflict as old as time itself, maybe.

One problem, though: the ends do NOT justify the means! I am hoping there is some kind of real justice to all of this.


While i get where you're coming from, I think they moreso just represent Order and Chaos in the Housepets! universe sense or at least like to stand-in as it. Surely there's someone higher up on he food chain than those two. >.>

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
PhoenixAsper wrote:
One problem, though: the ends do NOT justify the means! I am hoping there is some kind of real justice to all of this.

It depends on what opportunities are available. Few people (if any) would honestly choose to do wrong over doing right for no good reason. But sometimes we all must do what we must do, and I think Pete feels as though this is something he must do, not just because of the Spirit Dragon, but because he is doing it on principle.
If he feels this way, then he WILL do what he feels he MUST DO in any means necessary. Sometimes this means doing things no one would ever want to do, but they must, so they will. To him, it would all be worth it, regardless of what happens, good or otherwise, this change is of the utmost importance and any hardship that comes with it is an unfortunate necessity.

It may seem condemnable, but Pete will have to be the one the shoulder the burden of all the wrong that he does and the suffering he has caused, and I very much doubt Pete is an unthinking maniac. He doesn't like it, but, as said before, it HAS to happen one way or another.


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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
PhoenixAsper wrote:
Also:

So that's the feud, huh? It's official then: This IS Babylon 5 now. Pete's the Shadows and Dragon's the Vorlons. One wants chaos and evolution, one wants order, preservation and obedience. It's a conflict as old as time itself, maybe.

One problem, though: the ends do NOT justify the means! I am hoping there is some kind of real justice to all of this.


I don't think that Dragon wants Order and obedience just that she wants to do the same thing differently then Pete does. I'm guessing that this is the "goals" that the two of them disagreed on to start the duel and the duel its self is about what way to do it. (hence the winner getting to lead the gaming group) Pete is impatient and wants to force the change and Dragon wants to manipulate it from behind the scenes, since, to me anyway, Sabrina is implying they disagree on how to do it (since Pete's way will end in catastrophe) not what Pete wants to do.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
IceKitsune wrote:
I don't think that Dragon wants Order and obedience just that she wants to do the same thing differently then Pete does. I'm guessing that this is the "goals" that the two of them disagreed on to start the duel and the duel its self is about what way to do it. (hence the winner getting to lead the gaming group) Pete is impatient and wants to force the change and Dragon wants to manipulate it from behind the scenes, since, to me anyway, Sabrina is implying they disagree on how to do it (since Pete's way will end in catastrophe) not what Pete wants to do.


What i bolded seems to be the case here. Pete wants the active approach while Dragon wants the passive approach. My guess is also, if Pete went with his change, it would be somethign displayed in the current comic's timeline, A.K.A the current timeline on this comic, while Dragons approach would be something that would happen overtime, likely another 1000 years or more, probably not shown at all unless she figured out something else.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Well, what kind of comic would this be if Dragon got her way, then? :P

An addendum, though: Pete and Dragon both seem to want what's best for the world, whether they are right or not, and in very different ways. Unlike the Shadows and Vorlons, they haven't actively started destroying everyone and everything influenced by the other.

Why do I get the feeling Keene will want to become Pete's avatar out of desire to see his father's legacy fulfilled? :?


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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
GameCobra wrote:
What i bolded seems to be the case here. Pete wants the active approach while Dragon wants the passive approach. My guess is also, if Pete went with his change, it would be something displayed in the current comic's timeline, A.K.A the current timeline on this comic, while Dragons approach would be something that would happen overtime, likely another 1000 years or more, probably not shown at all unless she figured out something else.


I was seeing it more as Dragon wants people (that includes animals) to discover equality on their own, while Pete thinks that he should give a helping hand.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Ratros wrote:
GameCobra wrote:
What i bolded seems to be the case here. Pete wants the active approach while Dragon wants the passive approach. My guess is also, if Pete went with his change, it would be something displayed in the current comic's timeline, A.K.A the current timeline on this comic, while Dragons approach would be something that would happen overtime, likely another 1000 years or more, probably not shown at all unless she figured out something else.


I was seeing it more as Dragon wants people (that includes animals) to discover equality on their own, while Pete thinks that he should give a helping hand.


The problem with that idea is they are playing a game. If you just sit back and let them do it them selves and do nothing at all (which I agree is what I would personally want them to do) its not much of a game; there would be no reason to play. Plus look at what she's already done with the main characters relationships in the comic, she clearly likes manipulating or guiding (however you prefer to view it) people to do what she wants them to do. So its likely she would actively do things to get it done rather then let humans and animals to it on there own.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
One thing you have to remember though about the whole situation though is that if Dragon never interefered, Pete would've more than likely had Grape or Peanut as his Dream Sunderer, with Grape originally being chosen by Pete to be his avatar. If that were the case, Peanut or Grape would've been living a loveless life since that's one of Pete's requirements for his avatar. Also, Sabrina and Tarot are so far the only ones that are willingly playing the game while Peanut is just going along with it. King is the only one that's generally upset by the game because he's human once ~ It could even be considered that the reason the pets generally get along with gods like Pete or Dragon is because pets in general when it comes to situations involving Pete and Dragon are a natural cause and effect in their lives and not looked at as we would say as interference.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
GameCobra wrote:
One thing you have to remember though about the whole situation though is that if Dragon never interefered, Pete would've more than likely had Grape or Peanut as his Dream Sunderer, with Grape originally being chosen by Pete to be his avatar. If that were the case, Peanut or Grape would've been living a loveless life since that's one of Pete's requirements for his avatar. Also, Sabrina and Tarot are so far the only ones that are willingly playing the game while Peanut is just going along with it. King is the only one that's generally upset by the game because he's human once ~ It could even be considered that the reason the pets generally get along with gods like Pete or Dragon is because pets in general when it comes to situations involving Pete and Dragon are a natural cause and effect in their lives and not looked at as we would say as interference.


Well, yes, but that assumes that they keep the Avatars from the duel into the main game (which we no almost nothing about) if that's not the case (which I think it likely is for the sake of the story having an end/not having to get rid of characters after the duel ends.) they would have been loveless for the course of the duel, which we know can't be the course of there whole lives anyway since the comic would have no end. Also there is the fact that, lets face it if we are right about Dragons goals, Tarot is a kind of terrible choice if she can't switch. She can't possibly be influential enough to start anything (though I will admit this could be because we no next to nothing about Tarot), a world leaders pet or a pet with money like the ferrets would be a more logical choice.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Just now seeing the new comic. Wow, this has honestly explained a lot. Pete's poses are quite.... imposing and god like. Well done on them!!

So the Miltons are with Pete and his ends, and Tarot and Sabrina are with the means. Interesting to see how the entire neighborhood would break down on this.

Has anyone thought that this would happen naturally anyway? Equality may take a while, but it is fairly inevitable... :?

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
copper wrote:
Just now seeing the new comic. Wow, this has honestly explained a lot. Pete's poses are quite.... imposing and god like. Well done on them!!

So the Miltons are with Pete and his ends, and Tarot and Sabrina are with the means. Interesting to see how the entire neighborhood would break down on this.

Has anyone thought that this would happen naturally anyway? Equality may take a while, but it is fairly inevitable... :?


Yes it very likely would have, which makes both of their plans pointless and its why I don't like either of them. Also we don't know yet if Keene will side with Pete on this since both sides want the same thing (or it at least seems that way to me) just different ways of doing it.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Eh, to my understanding, Pete wants to create equality for everyone and force it upon everyone and Dragon just wants the timeline to flow freely, and come what may. Dragon has no real goal other than to preserve the status quo, keep everything on its natural course.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
copper wrote:
Eh, to my understanding, Pete wants to create equality for everyone and force it upon everyone and Dragon just wants the timeline to flow freely, and come what may. Dragon has no real goal other than to preserve the status quo, keep everything on its natural course.


Except if that is the case then what kind of U&U game is she going to lead (remember they are dueling to be the leader of the other U&U group and implement their plan)? if she does nothing then its a boring pointless game; the players are basically watching a movie. I guess that could work if there is a third game being played by yet another group but their is absolutely no indication of that at all.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Not entirely. They could easily play the game along the main stream of time, their events influencing it, yet, but not forcing it to alter it's course as dramatically as that. To influence and aid individuals to do things can be a good thing, but forcing all of existence to acknowledge a sudden change as dramatic as equality has some serious repercussions.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
copper wrote:
Not entirely. They could easily play the game along the main stream of time, their events influencing it, yet, but not forcing it to alter it's course as dramatically as that. To influence and aid individuals to do things can be a good thing, but forcing all of existence to acknowledge a sudden change as dramatic as equality has some serious repercussions.


The natural course would be without the Nerds influence, if Dragon is influencing stuff then its not the natural course of things. She likely wants to make it happen faster therefore she is in fact forcing it, just in a different (and while I still don't like it, I will admit, a better way) then Pete.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Heh, just existing forces change. it is still natural, even with the Cosmic Nerd's influence. It is the same as an avatar taking counsel in their best friend. The current rules allow for free will, and that makes the timeline fairly unchanged, even with such a radical element in play.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
copper wrote:
Heh, just existing forces change. it is still natural, even with the Cosmic Nerd's influence. It is the same as an avatar taking counsel in their best friend. The current rules allow for free will, and that makes the timeline fairly unchanged, even with such a radical element in play.


Ok I can see where your coming from, however this only works if she helps and influence people who ask for it, if she doesn't then again she is forcing it. Look at Max coming over at the end of N-pile date that was very, very likely influenced by Dragon and I'm sure Max didn't want to be locked out of his house, and by that same accord Grape was going to break it off with Max at the time and she never asked Dragon for her input on that. (and even if she really wasn't going to the point on Max still stands) Then there is also whatever happened between Max and Sabrina which, while I freely admit we don't know exactly what happened there and why, considering what Dragon has been doing and Max not wanting Tarot around in Scaredy Cats it wouldn't surprise me if she had something to do with that as well.

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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
And there you assume too much. You assume that instead of influencing, Dragon is forcing. From what has been said of those events, Dragon only influenced feelings and actions already taking place. More like making a quarter flip to heads rather than tails, like it would normally. Again, she did not force the actions, she merely coerced the individuals into a favorable outcome.

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Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:47 pm
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Of course we don't get to see what that first P. S. says....

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Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:03 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
huh

mana from heaven

or hell, I guess

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Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:03 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
copper wrote:
And there you assume too much. You assume that instead of influencing, Dragon is forcing. From what has been said of those events, Dragon only influenced feelings and actions already taking place. More like making a quarter flip to heads rather than tails, like it would normally. Again, she did not force the actions, she merely coerced the individuals into a favorable outcome.


Yes but you are making the same assumptions that she is just influencing instead of Forcing things along. IIRC Rick said that Dragon was not completely innocent in all of this either. (it was during the whole Trial in Heaven debate)

Anyway so Keene is Petes Minion and is going to try and make Pete work on his terms for his goal, this should get interesting.

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Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:11 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Ouch... he has to go into the temple for more mana? That needs to be easier...

I like how Pete almost forgot the Or was it after being mater of fact about it being real.

The miltons a minion? That is like calling Karishad a help....

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Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:12 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Also Rick is Pete going to get an avatar anytime soon? I'm not saying give any real spoilers, just are we getting close to that.

Edit: I just though of this, (and I don't know why it took me so long also I don't think anyone else pointed this out) it would completely depend on if the Trial negated Kitsune’s ruling or not. If it didn’t then yes, yes he does have an avatar since he can manifest on earth now as shown in this arc. However his Temple might be some kind of exception to Kitsune's rule.

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Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:15 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
Eating mana never ends well? That would explain why mana emptying from your mana pool used to deal damage to you.

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Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:38 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
I have to be frank; I'm worried. That is all.

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Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:53 am
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Post Re: Arc #63 Temple Crashers
You know if Pete was smart then he could easily use Keene to screw over Dragon. Pay Tarot and Sabrina's owner to move, since he used to travel a lot before settling down and they have way more then enough money I'm sure he could be persuaded to do so. Then Peanut and Fido are open as being Avatars and Dragon loses. This is assuming he doesn't have an avatar already as I speculated in my other post.

Edit: By the way this is not to say long distance relationship don't work (I'm in one so I know they can) just that a lot of the time they don't so it would be a really good idea for Pete to try considering how far behind he is.

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