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Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020 
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Post Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
Hello, fellow players!
As of now, this is a mere proposal, an embryo of a FUTURE RolePlay.
Yes, you heard it right.
Even if it got approved today, it wouldn't start before January 1, 2020.
Yeah, really?
Yes! This specific topic and trend is intended as a laboratory. Here, I'd love to see your ideas for the construction of a working colony of 200 humans, 200 animals, 55 chimeras genetically created to live on the surface, and 100 anidroids on the Red Planet. Said colony will have to be of course self-sustaining in terms of food, water and energy. It must work as the foundation in the generational program of Mars' terraforming (so, reconstruction of its magnetic field, creation of an atmosphere, asteroid bombardment for water, etc).
The colonists will undertake the mission of their lives, literally: they will live the rest of their lives on Mars, reproducing there via the...classical means. BUT, new blood will be also brought thanks to artificial wombs and combination of genetic material from a bank brought from Earth...
But there is SO MUCH to think and talk about! I find it the most fascinating project for our future, and I'd like to have a setting, which, even in sci-fi terms, can be plausible enough to be realized -like, if Government policies wouldn't restrain your budget and decisionary process, provided that thw whole process is for peace and not war, what would you do?
The clock runs, guys, and if you like ths idea just fill in here your inspirations: If they are worth, even should the idea's owner leave, I'd be glad to keep his/her dream alive here.
So, what do you sayyyy? *grins*

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Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:29 am
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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
Shouldn't this be put in the main ooc first?

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Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:33 am
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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
Fantastic idea! I love a good brainstorm!

IDEA:
All living creatures that require food, water, shelter or social interaction that may interfere with construction of habitats will be sent to Mars exactly 2 weeks after the non-living components, Anidroids, are sent. This not only gives our daring astronauts the ability to say "Goodbye" to friends and family that may not be joining on the trip, but it also allows the droids to build the habitats necessary to sustain a living being. Since droids do not need to sleep or eat and need only charge for short periods of the day, they can effectively work with much greater efficiency than a living being could. Plus, you wouldn't need to send up the supplies necessary to sustain living beings such as food and water. You'd only have to send up that stuff with the living creatures, cutting down on weight and space traffic. Huzzah we have our habitats. Then the robots can go off and become servants or whatever they want to do if they have feelings of some sort. Humans will take over as the dominant species via procreation because with our lifespans and ability to reason outside of pure logic, we'll make the ultimate caretakers for a continuously changing system. The animals can be moved about into positions as needed.

KEY POINTS:
- Weight per launch is kept down, increasing efficiency of space travel. This is a good thing.
- Anidroids are the primary constructors. With their longer working hours and efficient communication via a network, they will make the ultimate builders.
- Humans are the primary caretakers. Why? Longer lifespans allow for less information loss between generations as well as the ability to handle greater amounts of change over a longer period of time.
- Animals will hold similar positions. I can't bias against them because they're intelligent and there's no reason to.

ALTERNATIVE:
We send everyone up all at once. It takes a similar amount of time for the Anidroids to build habitats. Humans survive in a mothership because there wouldn't be any habitats on the ground. This way would use a large mothership built in orbit around Earth because that's cool and sci-fi but completely plausible [see: ISS]. The mothership would travel to Mars and perform orbital drops consisting of habitat parts and Anidroids. 2 weeks aboard the Mothership, then the living components drop to the surface and the mothership is computer guided back to Earth to act as a taxi in order to keep efficiency up, because sending one rocket with 10 people to Mars is stupid when you could send small, reusable, barely orbital ships to a mothership and then send a bunch of people to Mars at once.

KEY POINTS:
- Primary means of transport: The Mothership -> Can be built in space and would be an efficient means of transporting mass amounts of people/animals/provisions to Mars.
- Humans are given more time to acclimate to their new neighbors/townmates aboard the mothership. This is good for moral.
- Science. You can perform science aboard the mothership for a longer period than you can regular rockets. Science is also a good thing.
- Increased efficiency on putting people into space. Instead of using rockets, you would use SSTO's which are basically planes with rockets on them as well as airbreathing engines. This is super efficient and would probably afford more people the opportunity to live on Mars in the long run. Just because there is no cost limit for me doesn't mean I can't assume the same for the Earthlings who work for a living.

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Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:02 am
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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
At first I was divided between multiple launches and one single voyage
Multiple launches would give at least a certainty that the right number of personnel is sent to Mars: This means preparing and training extra manning and hardware and food, etc...
BUT, as DESKE pointed out, it would also be a morale-killer. It's difficult already to set one's mind for a one-way trip, but it would be also harder doing that trip knowing you couldn't even reach your destination. Not to mention that the backup of such an immense project would lead to even more errors. It's like doubling the difficulties, and it would consume way more time.
Instead, multiple launches will be made of the first hardware, constructionware, etc that can be sent with minimal loss. And this includes anidroids, which will activate once on Mars and start realizing the place where the colonists will live, clean the terrain, do some science, etc. that a human couldn't do in acceptable times.

So, YES for the construction in orbit of a single modular ship. It will be toughest, the most protected and safest of them all. Able to withstand even micrometeoric punctures thanks to its structure. It will be having all sorts of radiation- and kinetic-shielding, effectively it will even look goofy: an egg-shaped thingie.^^
The hull will allow to work and move all around the 'inner skeleton', the spaceship. Every manned section will be built inside a rotation ring. Sorry, but even if we take it for granted, artificial gravity is NOT a thing, we need to replicate it as best as possible.
PROPULSION: A two-stage engine is needed: the first stage will be managed by plasma propulsor for a slow, controlled departure from orbit. Once the ship is far away enough, an ORION propulsor will do the rest: an ORION propulsor consists of...well, nuclear charges. A simple but effective system to boost the ship and shorten the voyage as much as possible. Before approaching Mars, plasma engines will slow down the 'Egg'.
The 'egg' will not landing on Mars of course, but once inserted in orbit, this is what will happen:

Stage 1) The Egg sheds her shielding, sending it all to the surface. The shielding will be recycled for construction purposes
Stage 2) The ship sends its modules/pods down to Mars. THOSE will work as miniships in their own right, piloted to a safe spot. They will be entirely reused for multiple purposes
Stage 3) The plasma engines section will be deployed to the surface and used as backup power for the colony.
Stage 4) The last of the nuclear fuel will be deployed to the surface to fuel the pocket reactors that were previously assembled.

At this point, nothing of the ship is left, your life on Mars can start!

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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
Well I have been into this kind of topic world building elsewhere, do not know how much hand waving you are going to throw at the idea of this project. Seeing as there are going to be chimeras and I am going to assume that those anidroids are going to be some top of the line can do anything a person or animal in this universe can do. Along with the artificial wombs and genetic materials. For now though I will focus on the planet Mars itself as I can keyboard scientist the ideas of either giving it a magnetic field or atmosphere. Unless you really want to hand wave some technology in there you are going to have to choose between a magnetic field or an atmosphere for a planet like Mars, and might want to forget liquid water on the surface, Mars already has enough ice water though.

Depending on how one thinks Mars lost its magnetic field can vary from person to person, and there are theoretical ways of getting one to form on Mars again. Almost all of them involve finding a way to heat back up the solid core of the planet, which for whatever reason cooled down. Now one group could deliver some powerful nuclear bombs or other methods like using an electric current and run it through the planet. Both of these would require a lot of energy that would have to be brought in somehow to liquify the core. Either that or spend probably just as much resources to bring in an asteroid big enough to heat up the whole planet again. Though one theory as to why the planet lost its magnetic field was because of the fact that Mars got hit by asteroids when it did have a magnetic field. This caused the surface of the planet to heat up ending the convection cycle of the core. Earth was able to go through the same process cause Earth is a lot larger than Mars. No matter what though one will need a lot of energy to heat up a planet's core again, and that heat is not going to stick there if you believe that the planet's small size caused the core to cool faster than Earth's is right now.

But having a magnetic field can do a lot of good for colonist trying to live on the red planet, mainly protect them from solar winds and radiation. Though by putting in the work to give the planet a magnetic field, one is giving up the prospect of a breathable atmosphere. Mars is a small not to dense planet, it is considered why, unlike Venus, it lost what atmosphere it had without a shielding magnetic field. Currently right now though it does have one percent of Earth's atmosphere, mostly made of carbon dioxide. One plan that I know of was the idea to pump the atmosphere full of carbon dioxide to increase the atmospheric pressure and heat the planet. Along with giving the planet a magnetic field that is going to be a lot of heat. Problems start to come in when you want to add oxygen and nitrogen into the atmosphere. As of now Mars can hold onto oxygen and nitrogen by itself if it had a magnetic field to protect it from being blown away, and can hold onto carbon dioxide, a heavier element, mostly without the magnetic field.

So if one had the resources they could just keep pumping the atmosphere full of brought in oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide. If they did it faster than the rate it was lost one would eventually have a breathable, though incredibly cold outside environment. Now I have probably jumped around a bit, sorry for that. One thing I bring up is heat, and that Mars is a small planet, trying to heat it up to an Earth like temperature, more so for the core of the planet, will mean that Mars would no longer be able to hold onto oxygen and nitrogen. Why is that, from what I have found Jeans escape of the molecules being hot enough with energy to go faster than escape velocity. This happens already with Mars and Earth, along with the other planets, in small qualities. It could be the one of the reason the warmer inner planets have heavier elements in their atmospheres whereas the gas giants in the outer system can hold the lighter elements. On top of their size and what not.

Oh and the reason I said forget about liquid water at the beginning is because liquid water would eventually evaporate through Jeans escape as it currently is already. Heating the planet up through helping it get a magnetic field or a more dense atmosphere for Earth like conditions would just evaporate it away faster. That is why the water that is there now is stuck as ice, any warmer and there would be none left around after some time.

Though in the end, it would be possible to heat up enough of Mars to give it a magnetic field and a atmosphere that would be made largely of carbon dioxide. The atmosphere would probably have to be made to have less pressure than Earth's since carbon dioxide is heavier and denser. It would effect how fast sound and light goes, probably not noticeable but would be measurable, just a fun fact. In the long run the cycles of restoring both the atmosphere and core temperature would be costly in resources. If those were somehow not a factor one could just say throw everything at it to make it Earth like as possible and putting in the systems to get that kind of resource amount to the planet. Don't think Earth would be able to have enough to provide for the losing Mars in the long run.

Also those chimeras are going to be something if one wants them to be evolved for the Mar's surface. Less gravity, less atmospheric pressure, less free oxygen. Things are going to have to be breathing carbon dioxide and exhaling oxygen along with being able to gild along, sure not going to be able to fly. Imagine it would be a gas bag like creature, unless, serious hand waving technology of the science fiction comes to the rescue. For the people and the animals, it would be best to just stick to the habitat modules kind of like the current idea is for settling Mars. Otherwise a safe bet is a warm carbon dioxide atmosphere with little of anything else with a magnetic field to protect it. Try to collect the water at the poles first and as fast as a group can though before it goes away to space.

Fun gas retention plot to show what Mars can hold compared to how hot you want it. Along with another graph to show you what Mars can hold, and how making it hotter can effect the planet.

As of right now this is mostly ramblings of a keyboard scientist here, could be wrong. If I am please happily roast me on how I messed up as I have looked a lot into this myself and would like to learn the correct things.

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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
Civilization Wrote:
Well I have been into this kind of topic world building elsewhere, do not know how much hand waving you are going to throw at the idea of this project. Seeing as there are going to be chimeras and I am going to assume that those anidroids are going to be some top of the line can do anything a person or animal in this universe can do. Along with the artificial wombs and genetic materials. For now though I will focus on the planet Mars itself as I can keyboard scientist the ideas of either giving it a magnetic field or atmosphere. Unless you really want to hand wave some technology in there you are going to have to choose between a magnetic field or an atmosphere for a planet like Mars, and might want to forget liquid water on the surface, Mars already has enough ice water though.

Yup! Permafrost and some conveniently hidden ice water reservoirs will be the trick.

Quote:
Depending on how one thinks Mars lost its magnetic field can vary from person to person, and there are theoretical ways of getting one to form on Mars again. Almost all of them involve finding a way to heat back up the solid core of the planet, which for whatever reason cooled down. Now one group could deliver some powerful nuclear bombs or other methods like using an electric current and run it through the planet. Both of these would require a lot of energy that would have to be brought in somehow to liquify the core. Either that or spend probably just as much resources to bring in an asteroid big enough to heat up the whole planet again. Though one theory as to why the planet lost its magnetic field was because of the fact that Mars got hit by asteroids when it did have a magnetic field. This caused the surface of the planet to heat up ending the convection cycle of the core. Earth was able to go through the same process cause Earth is a lot larger than Mars. No matter what though one will need a lot of energy to heat up a planet's core again, and that heat is not going to stick there if you believe that the planet's small size caused the core to cool faster than Earth's is right now.

For now, and until anything new comes up, I will stick to the theory that Mars lost its magnetic field due to its geological death. For now, the best approach I see is a satellite network.

Quote:
But having a magnetic field can do a lot of good for colonist trying to live on the red planet, mainly protect them from solar winds and radiation. Though by putting in the work to give the planet a magnetic field, one is giving up the prospect of a breathable atmosphere. Mars is a small not to dense planet, it is considered why, unlike Venus, it lost what atmosphere it had without a shielding magnetic field. Currently right now though it does have one percent of Earth's atmosphere, mostly made of carbon dioxide. One plan that I know of was the idea to pump the atmosphere full of carbon dioxide to increase the atmospheric pressure and heat the planet. Along with giving the planet a magnetic field that is going to be a lot of heat. Problems start to come in when you want to add oxygen and nitrogen into the atmosphere. As of now Mars can hold onto oxygen and nitrogen by itself if it had a magnetic field to protect it from being blown away, and can hold onto carbon dioxide, a heavier element, mostly without the magnetic field.

A 'slow' but feaseable solution could be building...burners. Massive coal burners. Just like that, a technology we know, used to spew all the CO2 from raw coal that on Earth is a pollutant but on Mars would be a godsend. But all of this must come only after the magnetic field is operative.

Quote:
So if one had the resources they could just keep pumping the atmosphere full of brought in oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide. If they did it faster than the rate it was lost one would eventually have a breathable, though incredibly cold outside environment. Now I have probably jumped around a bit, sorry for that. One thing I bring up is heat, and that Mars is a small planet, trying to heat it up to an Earth like temperature, more so for the core of the planet, will mean that Mars would no longer be able to hold onto oxygen and nitrogen. Why is that, from what I have found Jeans escape of the molecules being hot enough with energy to go faster than escape velocity. This happens already with Mars and Earth, along with the other planets, in small qualities. It could be the one of the reason the warmer inner planets have heavier elements in their atmospheres whereas the gas giants in the outer system can hold the lighter elements. On top of their size and what not
.
We have almost to years to work it up, no worries^^
Alternative is: let us build domed cities. Should Mars be too hard to terraform with the knowledge we have, let's instead progressively cover its surface with modular dome cities with a controlled envinronment, and structured so that should a meteor puncture or damage one, the damaged section can be promptly cut out from the others and be repaired in safety.

Quote:
Oh and the reason I said forget about liquid water at the beginning is because liquid water would eventually evaporate through Jeans escape as it currently is already. Heating the planet up through helping it get a magnetic field or a more dense atmosphere for Earth like conditions would just evaporate it away faster. That is why the water that is there now is stuck as ice, any warmer and there would be none left around after some time.

Yup, right-o about that. We need to build up an infrastructure at the right pressure and temperature so that this drilling station can extract the ice and transport it to the rest of the colony.

Quote:
Though in the end, it would be possible to heat up enough of Mars to give it a magnetic field and a atmosphere that would be made largely of carbon dioxide. The atmosphere would probably have to be made to have less pressure than Earth's since carbon dioxide is heavier and denser. It would effect how fast sound and light goes, probably not noticeable but would be measurable, just a fun fact. In the long run the cycles of restoring both the atmosphere and core temperature would be costly in resources. If those were somehow not a factor one could just say throw everything at it to make it Earth like as possible and putting in the systems to get that kind of resource amount to the planet. Don't think Earth would be able to have enough to provide for the losing Mars in the long run.

Yes, in the end Blue Mars is not just an ideological project, it must sustain itself, be the new frontier. A constant loss of resources wouln't do, even to the most dedicated tycoon.
Again, we have time to think this up before the launch of the mothership

Quote:
Also those chimeras are going to be something if one wants them to be evolved for the Mar's surface. Less gravity, less atmospheric pressure, less free oxygen. Things are going to have to be breathing carbon dioxide and exhaling oxygen along with being able to gild along, sure not going to be able to fly. Imagine it would be a gas bag like creature, unless, serious hand waving technology of the science fiction comes to the rescue. For the people and the animals, it would be best to just stick to the habitat modules kind of like the current idea is for settling Mars. Otherwise a safe bet is a warm carbon dioxide atmosphere with little of anything else with a magnetic field to protect it. Try to collect the water at the poles first and as fast as a group can though before it goes away to space.

Yes, the chimeras, be them human- or animal-based, are made to withstand Mars' raw conditions. They must also be radiation-resilient and able to capture as much solar energy and use it for their methabolysm. They would be true martians, but unfortunately, due to their mixed genepool, they cannot reproduce. They could be cloned, but not sire an offspring

Fun gas retention plot to show what Mars can hold compared to how hot you want it. Along with another graph to show you what Mars can hold, and how making it hotter can effect the planet.

As of right now this is mostly ramblings of a keyboard scientist here, could be wrong. If I am please happily roast me on how I messed up as I have looked a lot into this myself and would like to learn the correct things.[/quote]
Nothing to roast here! I welcome all ideas as long as they stay within the 'possible science'. As I said earlier, one or two strategic godsends are allowed, like:
1) a hidden ice reservoir under the surface, a BIG one
2) a reservoir of precious metals from an ancient asteroid fallen on Mars

I am doubtful about finding fossils on the planet. I mean, it would be a HUGE wow-factor, even finding the shells of the most primitive life forms we could imagine, it would confirm life beyond Earth. So that should be discussed with the help of someone who knows his/her biology. I'd like this to be the most veritable scenario...

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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
Alright geological cooling, opens up the option for going out and getting a giant asteroid and just slamming Mars until it is all molten rock, and waiting some million years for it to cool down. Have to be patient but it would get a magnetic field by the end of it. Of course if one was to do that then it would probably be helpful to go start making a bigger moon for Mars to tidally heat it. All major too long of a time projects eh. Sticking with realism one could take every nuclear bomb, along with every other explosive ordinance, blow it all up near the Mar's core. It would not do much, but if a group could do that then it would mean all the nations of the planet are getting along together enough to ditch MAD. Probably be able to dump nuclear waste on Mars too, not that it would do anything good, maybe put the people of Earth at ease with nuclear power by making it Mar's problem. Running an electric current through the core would probably take more resources and time than just slamming an asteroid into the planet.

So that leaves two more options that are currently up for plans right now. There is the idea to use superconductors rings to generate a weak magnetic field, the research paper was suppose to be in case if Earth needed it, but Mars could use it more.
Feasibility of Artificial Geomagnetic Field Generation
by a Superconducting Ring Network Wrote:
A series of planet-encircling superconducting rings is considered as a means of generating an artificial geomagnetic field, which may become necessary should the geomagnetic field weaken in association with polarity reversal. To maintain a geomagnetic field equivalent to 10% of the present-day strength, which is effective to protect the Earth from high-energy radiation, a set of 12 rings carrying a maximum current of 6.4 MA is calculated to be necessary. Using HTS technology, it is considered that such a project is feasible, with modest power requirements.

Of course with this there would need to be a power generating plant operational in order to have the rings start producing a magnetic field. The wires would have to be kept cold to allow for superconductivity, though there already are the means of producing liquid nitrogen and other coolants. After a long while the rings would have to get replaced to, with resources Mars does not have most likely, like the ones used to make the coolants.

One of the most recent ideas is to stick a powerful dipole magnetic in the L1 orbit of Mars. Do not know much about the logistics of that, but figure it would fit in with a satellite network if that was a long term goal. Can not imagine it would be able to keep that position forever either without some resources going into it, or maybe it could. Someone with better knowledge of how things are kept in space, stay in space could probably answer it better. As well as saying if it was permanent one time job or would need upkeep, if it was permanent well then it seems like this is the golden answer to be sustainable. Either option is currently doable, just depends on how fast one could think they could get it built and in place on top of all the other demands of the project without anything going wrong. Which usually something goes wrong.

But with a magnetic field or shield in place one could go looking at the atmosphere now, the enemy of long term sustainability of the atmosphere will be the planet itself. One could start pumping out heavy greenhouse gases before the magnetic field exists without too much to worry about in the short term. Of choice with what is available on Mars would be the carbon dioxide or the much more effective fluorine gases. One would have to be careful though with the type of fluorine gas used, like the ones that use chlorine, as some would ruin the slim chances of getting any ozone to form. I would say I do like the idea of just burning coal and sticking with those byproducts to thicken the atmosphere. One could use the water on Mars for electric power, though that would be the number one waster of water as near none of it would be reusable. And eight thousand gallons of water are evaporated every minute, which would not be guaranteed to be able to reclaim. Though if one was to use superconductors coal power in the short term could do the job of creating a magnetic field and causing global warming.

Scherer Steam Electric Generating Station is the largest coal fired plant in the US, burning through eleven million tons of coal a year. Producing twenty seven million tons of carbon dioxide, seventy five thousand tons of sulfur dioxide, and seventeen thousand tons of nitric oxide. With better filters one could reduce the other byproducts produced by burning coal, right now if one was to build a plant just like that on Mars it would pump out about three thousand one hundred tons of carbon dioxide an hour. The most optimistic paper I read said it would take about twenty years of pumping out that level of greenhouse gases to raise the temperature at the poles up enough that the carbon dioxide ice found at the poles would sublime causing a global warming cycle. One would also need to have a system in place as well as bring in some extra oxygen to keep the coal burning.

Right now the atmospheric pressure is about one kilopascal, below the Armstrong limit of six kilopascals, so better have some pressure suits with the colonist unless one can afford to wait some decades. That same optimistic paper said that there is enough carbon dioxide as ice to raise atmospheric pressure up to between thirty to sixty kilopascals after many decades of the ice turning straight into vapor. With that colonist would only need to have something supplying them with the oxygen needed to live as the atmosphere would have next to none. Though like with the coal needing a fire a proper system can turn carbon dioxide into oxygen, I think our current systems for doing that require a lot of energy to do so though, more short term stuff. The more realistic paper I read on this subject said that it really is not known how much greenhouse gases could be released by the planet and one could just end up making another Venus. Then the most pessimistic paper said that it would take hundreds of years to do this even with the fluorine gases. Since it is all speculation for now it just depends on how one goes about preparing to do the project.

In the end one could hypothetically grow plants outside, though with Mars unable to hold liquid water for a long period of time it would probably kill weak plants that need a lot of water. Transpiration would be the major problem if trying to grow plants outside of a contained environment. Though if one goes about it optimistically maybe there is enough water ice to convert into so much water that loss through Jeans escape would be barely noticeable. Then with enough oxygen producing plants, oxygen loss through Jeans escape would not be that big a problem. Nitrogen resources would have to be brought in, no way around it, can not imagine burning coal would provide enough for the nitrogen cycle let alone anything Mars has. Best case would be an atmosphere made up of a split between oxygen and carbon dioxide, so being outside even with enough oxygen in the air, one is going to need something to filter out the carbon dioxide or just have a closed oxygen giving system. Colonist would have about a few minutes before dropping unconscious and dealing with some serious medical problems with every prolonged second of exposure. Speaking of filters a good strong ventilation system could turn the carbon dioxide in oxygen into a closed living environment, though one would have to clean it a lot from all the iron rust in the air already there.

So with all of that rambling yeah I would say domed cities would be the way to go, or using interconnected habitat modules depending on how much weight of breathing air one can bring and supply. One would also need a way to recycle the air, or bring enough nitrogen and already grown plants once set up on the planet, actually as well as the space vessel too. Looking at a lot of weight there to get off Earth, as well as some resupplying. Also if one is looking to be really truly self sufficient one is going to be needing to claim a lot of land to grow food, and oxygen is always going to be an issue. Biosphere 2 would probably be a great place to draw inspiration from, as well as what can go wrong. As well as how it can effect people badly. So how much land will be needed in the long term, I am not a fan of it depends, so having looked around the answer seems to be an acre per person to feed them for a year to be sustainable. Of course that could be reduced or increased depending on the diet required, this shows the average American diet. A lot of weight and resources for some of those foods could be removed. Though one would hope not to need to eat meals ready to eat for a year waiting for food to grow, still is an option. Not really official infograph on land use for food. Assuming those two hundred people are adult, along with two hundred more animals, and fifty five chimeras depending on their diet. Looking at a good three hundred to four hundred acre lot just for growing a variety of food. Vertical farming could lessen the spread of land, though will limit the kinds of food one can grow. Living space and work space will just add to the land use, along with coal burning places or solar farms to get energy and power. Looking at many tons of other resources to get into space.

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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
CyberDragon Wrote:
Shouldn't this be put in the main ooc first?

yes , normally an idea for an RP has to be proposed to the mods for approval first, then post in the main OCC , discuss the ideas with other players, then when the RP gathers enough players to start, an OOC is made.

Usually , these OOC would be merged with the main OOC , both to prevent cluttering up the forum and to hopefully gain more notice from unaware players. However, since this one is just kind of a gathering of ideas, and it already has such long , detailed posts after a day, proving that there is a considerable interest in it, I'll allow it to stay as it is.

Valerio, thank you for suggesting another potentially good idea for an RP, I d hope this will get start and will be fun for everyone, since everyone seem very enthusiastic about it. However, please remember to let me know about your ideas before hand.

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Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:39 am
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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
sorry. I will. :oops:
But as for the rest of the year(s), I don't think there will be any necessities -like, this is quite the handful as it is and there is still over one year of work to go :lol: :lol:

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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
Alright left off last time mentioning it would be many tons of resources to get off Earth and into orbit, from there one will be halfway to anywhere. One will need materials to build up the artificial magnetic field, the buildings or other things used to pump the atmosphere full of whatever, the power generator, the place where colonist will live and work, the mining and drilling equipment, the place to grow the food and the food itself, along with the water to start off. On top of that any parts for the spaceship that can not be used for building on Mars and fuel used. Finally weight of the colonist would be added in. I'll probably go ahead and be rather liberal with the resource amounts, by like, a lot to get started off on long term sustainability, which looking up looks pretty challenging. Though the engineers could do their job of slashing ideas and making it 200% more efficient with less.

So looking up placing a magnetic generating shield at the L1 point of Mars was interesting, placing a 1 to 2 Tesla magnet is supposed to be able to protect the whole planet. Vision 2050 (At the 1:36:10 mark.) discussed what a thing would do for Mars, there is also the paper. One thing I found interesting is that the mention that by preventing the stripping of the atmosphere, Mar's out gassing would raise the pressure up and also the temperature up 4 Celsius. That would melt the carbon dioxide ice without even needed to bring in outside greenhouse gases to do it, as well as supposedly getting the water ice to melt too. Though with such a low average temperature that is even lower at the poles, I do not know about that, maybe it would melt and there would be oceans. One thing that was not mentioned however that I wanted to focus on was how much resources this would take, which was not mentioned. Looking at random forums and all the science news articles only turned up one idea on the size of such a magnet, best I got so I am going to work with it. The 1 Tesla magnets would be 2-3 kilometers² and have a volume of 100,000 kilometers³, not including support structure or power supply, and if made of samarium-cobalt it would weigh around 100 kilotons. Now it needs something to power it from what I have read, and solar panels seem to be the popular choice, and those magnets would require a lot of energy to maintain that Telsa. Lets say that it would need the amount of power the US goes through, probably more than needed, there would need to be an area of 48,000-50,000 kilometers² of solar panels. Given that the average solar panel weighs 10-20 kilograms per square meter, that would be a total of 500,000,000,000 meters² so 1,000,000 kilotons. Probably butchered that math but I'll take it as a very high estimate and leave it as that, lots of weight already. Read that the size of the solar array needed could end up acting like a solar sail and pushing the structure out of the L1 point, and looking it up I found that that point was not really stable. So there would be more fuel needed to keep that in place, which would be a permanent on going thing, so a continuous amount of fuel weight needed to keep it in place.

Now for the option of building wires on the ground to generate a magnetic field, this paper goes over all the details needed to put such a system on Earth. Though it can be applied to other planets and moons or what not. For Earth the researchers already gave the end math stating the weight would be around 907 kilotons for the longest cable. Given that Mar's circumference is about half of Earth's, it would be less weight. Volume of the largest cable would be 37,919 kilometers³, just multiplying by 12 gives 455,028 kilometers³, more volume than the base magnets needed in space. Feeling a little lazy here so just saying that all of that volume is liquid nitrogen and ignoring the metal and vacuum the weight of that would be 366 kilotons. Little more weight than all the samarium-cobalt magnets in space option. One of the positive notes is that this option would not need as much energy to power, so less weight in the power generators. The paper listed only needing 640 megawatts for the longest cable, multiple by 12 to get more than enough watts to power the Mars cables at 7680 megawatts. Since I used solar panels for powering the last field I will use it here too. Lets say the average solar panel is 2 meters by 1 meter (Rounded up.) and generates an average of 300 watts. Also include that it would take about 5 acres to produce 1 megawatt, 5 acres time 7680 gets after conversion 155 kilometers², already way less than that needed to power the 1 Tesla magnet with my terrible math skills. It would weigh 3,100 kilotons, also way less. The negative note here however is that Mars has more dust in the atmosphere and gets less sunlight, so one would probably need way more solar panels, probably not up to that required for the space option though. And the positive side is that once in place it would not need metric tons of fuel to keep in place. Both would need upkeep however and replace parts or what not, no way around it over the many many years.

Continuing with my flawed math lets move onto getting that atmosphere pumped in. If one wants to go with putting in a magnetic field will eventually cause Mars to build up an atmosphere on its own one can skip this part of rambling. Last time I mentioned Scherer Steam Electric Generating Station and how it burns through about 9,979,032 metric tons of coal. Needing 20 years at the best that would mean one needs 199,581 kilotons to produce all the carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases necessary. One also needs air to burn that coal, Mars air will not cut it, so lets say for this the amount of air to burn one kilogram of coal is 7-9 kilograms. So 199,581,000,000 kilograms of coal, needs 1,796 kilotons of air just to use for burning stuff. Fun fact the Earth has 498,951,607,000 kilotons of atmosphere. Anyways now that one has the fuel now one needs an enclosure to hold the stuff to burn, tried looking up amount of materials needed to build a coal plant, did not get far. So I looked for other places to try to extrapolate terribly from. Looking up the Hoover Dam I found that it took 3,440,497 meters³ of concrete for 8,257 kilotons and 84 kilotons of steel, iron, and other metals. Seems like a nice big place to build to hold all the coal and air to burn stuff in. But that is a dam, seems kind of odd to me to try and use that as a base. So looking around with no results lead me to, the Palo Verde Nuclear Power Plant, (Yay Arizona for all the information.) turns out they have a nice free book going over all the plant needs. (Materials used and needed starts page 10-5) It lists 1,039 kilotons of concrete used and 66 kilotons of other materials. Probably more reasonable, and hey, if one wants to build it just like Palo Verde just like our power plant Earth already has it would only need 17,700 metric tons of uranium to produce power for 40 years. Page 10-6 goes through the process of what is needed and what would come out. It would produce 4 gigawatts and take up only 16 kilometers², much more efficient than the solar panels. Though if one were to use it for nuclear power it would need about 76,000,000 meters³ of water a year to keep cool. But it is an option if Mars has an abundance of water. That is it for my rambling there, should give a basic idea of stuff needed to burn coal and hopefully produce power.

Now it is time to move onto housing for living and working or what not. Looking at 555 humanoid shaped and mostly living things maybe that need indoor space to not die on Mars. I foolishly looked up how much resources it took to build things like the International Space Station or habitat modules with no success, terrible at Googling this stuff it seems. So I looked up, how much is needed to build a house. Cased closed just multiple that by 500 or so and one is looking good right, just redesign it to be more air tight and interconnect it or something, it will be fine no. Alright lets look at some bigger buildings that can hold more people. Towers seem like they can hold more than enough people, the materials used in those could be a poor estimate I can work with. The Willis Tower used about 69 kilotons of steel, 55,047 meters³ of concrete so 132 kilotons, and 16 kilotons of mechanical equipment as well as some weight in all of its glass windows, 16,100 bronze-tinted windows or so. It provides 418,064 meters² of floor space, that would give each individual 753 meters², though it would probably end up being way less so the structure could support the pressure difference of the air and make room for air locks or other special places as well as work areas. Another tower example is the Empire State Building, which used 55 kilotons of steel, 47,402 meters³ of concrete as well as 5,663 meters³ of limestone and granite for 129 kilotons. It provides 250,838 meters² of floor space, way less space for just a few less kilotons, it starts to paint a picture, probably not. Depends on how much space one wants to give to each individual, the more space the better, but more weight the worse. Lets look at the currently largest tower, the Burj Khalifa, it used 39 kilotons of steel rebar and 330,000 meters³ of concrete so 792 kilotons providing 334,000 meters² of floor space. Which is surprising as it is more materials under the listed amounts for less floor space, so I guess it depends on how one wants to use the materials too. For more crazy ideas I also managed to find the NASA Vehicle Assembly Building, it used 49,696 meters³ of concrete so 119 kilotons and 89 kilotons of steel. Go even deeper looking around, could always base the base off an aircraft carrier in materials used. I mean it has enough storage to feed a lot of people for a long time, must be doing something right. Well that should give an idea for now, seems like I want to build a big base of steel and concrete.

Lets look at what the people and the animals will need now in terms of growing food, having water, being able to deal with their waste, and having enough air to breath. I am going to say that every living creature is going to need 4,047 meters² of farmland to produce enough of a variety of food to feed themselves. From what I have read on how long it takes to grow plants it can range from a month to a few months, the colonists will need food brought with them to wait out this time. Even if one does start going crops before the living get to the destination it would not hurt to have back up supplies in case of a bad harvest or two. I will use the American diet of a person on average eating 0.9 metric tons of food per year, so 410 kilotons of long lasting food would not hurt for one to bring along. For water it is about 0.2 meters³ per year, this is probably lower than some other country. That would mean one would have to bring along 91 meters³ of water per year, which depends on how fast one thinks they can start getting the water off Mars drinkable. Which would equal 91 metric tons per year of weight in water brought along. The plants themselves are also going to need water, this website lists the most water using crop to need 2,500 millimeters of water over a growing cycle. Lets say there are four growing cycles a year just to have more than enough, looking at 10,000 millimeters of water. What the website goes on to say is that a rainfall of 1 millimeter supplies 0.001 meters³, or 1 liter of water to each square meter of the field. The total land that is going to be needed for farming is going to be 1,841,385 meters², given the formula that would mean one needs 18,413,850 meters³ of water per year. Which is about 18,414 kilotons of weight per year. Now it would probably be smart to build greenhouses to protect the crops from dealing with transpiration to death. There are a few kinds of plastics to work with, if one wants to have a go at it have fun. So far even using the thinnest weakest plastic I get a weight of over 3,000,000 kilotons for the roof of the structure. Been driving me a little insane since I have no idea if that should be right or not. Maybe it is suppose to be that high. So lets just say that they have the place to grow the food, most likely it will just end up outside anyways and I am just an over alarmist over the rate of losing stuff. Now people produce waste, average person produces 163 kilograms of poop and 0.5 meters³ of urine, probably need to bring more water in looking back at that 0.2 now. Though the poop and the urine should not be too difficult to deal with effectively. Air is going to be another thing that there is going to need to be a lot for people, the average person breathes 11,000 liters of air a day, so with 455 breathing things that is 5,005,000 liters a day. That would be a weight of 6,006 kilograms of air for everyone to breath depending on how good the recycling system for air is in place.

Finally the last thing I can think of is the drilling equipment for getting the water, lucky for me the National Petroleum Council listed off all the materials needed to make their rigs and what not for getting oil. It was close enough for me. It lists that a total of 2,769 kilotons of steel, copper, aluminum, and other metals were used for American oil gathering. It goes on to list in what ways the materials were used in purpose, figured that would be a nice starting base for drilling for water on Mars as well as gathering any water from the surface oceans if they form. The report also listed that all those wells and what not produced 995,539 meters³ a day of oil, which if set up on Mars produced the same amount of water it would be more than enough to supply all the water needs of this current set up, if I did the math right. Since the nuclear power option would only take 208,220 meters³ a day, the farms would take 50,449 meters³ a day, and individuals would take 0.25 meters³ a day. Seems like a lot left over for industrial use or something.

Right now space ship building and fuel are looking to be a whole other beast to improperly tackle. Right now adding up all these little projects, if one wanted to do them all on a material scale one is looking at 1,313,521 kilotons of stuff to get off Earth and to Mars. (Not even counting the greenhouse failed math of mine.) Will probably look over the math in this post with some shame a few times, look up what a space ship needs, how long it would take to build all of this, and how many people would be needed to build or produce all the materials for this project or what not. If you read through all that rambling, well, thank you for taking the time with this one.

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Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:35 am
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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
I just woke up so I'm not gonna debate the validity of using giant magnets to create a magnetosphere and how placing them at the L points would keep them in orbit unless there was a giant field of solar panels acting as an accidental sail. I'm just gonna believe it.

Your thoughts on housing are for the most part in good taste. On Earth. Lets get some key points down because I'm a little lazy and can't think of how to organize them into a paragraph. For future reference, I believe that budgetting both in funds and weight is unavoidable when dealing with space travel so I'm going to abide by those rules somewhat. I know we discussed that the governments of the world magically gave us all their money, but I could slippery slope that into something dumb. So I'm gonna go ahead and reopen your closed case.
KEY POINTS:
- Gravity.
Mars has only about 38% of the gravity Earth has. You didn't use this to your advantage when choosing building materials. You don't need steel and concrete when the worst you have to contend with is solar radiation and winds that top out at 60 MPH. Of course, I'm pretty sure Aluminum is more expensive than Steel, but the cost difference in that can be recouped when factoring in how much it isn't going to cost us to launch all that steel into space.

- Weight.
You are underestimating the weight of a kiloton by a lot. NASA's biggest rocket is going to be the Space Launch System, which has a payload rating of somewhere around 130,000 KG making it the most powerful rocket built. 130,000 KG is about 0.13 Kilotons; for reference, the ISS weighs about 0.4196 Kilotons. Think about that when the weight unit of "Kilotons" comes up. That's a lot of weight that you're gonna have to somehow get to Mars. My idea would be much like in "The Martian." Use lighter materials such as aluminum and plastics. Not only can they resist the wind and dust storms, they can also resist the effects of the Sun beating down on it. Of course, your towers would be limited to a couple floors, maybe. But a lower build ceiling and an increase in colony size over an area would probably be better for organizing what jobs go where.

- Living space.
Oh man do I have a small thought on this one. I don't know if you're gonna try and get the Willis tower to Mars or if you were just using it as an example of what you could build, but giving everyone 753 sqm of space is hilarious. That's over 8,000 sqft per person. But just in case you weren't using it as an example of space per person, I'll throw up my own. Here's a Manhattan microstudio apartment that measures in at 90 square feet. Of course we can bump that up by having everyone get 90 sq ft and then connecting every 2 rooms with a bathroom, sink, "kitchen" area. This would give them 90 feet of living and closet space while also giving them some amenities. This is almost exactly how it is in the military. We'd make up for the kitchen area by having a dedicated mess hall. 90 ft2 of space per person for 455 humanoid creatures drastically cuts down on the size. And for those of you wondering about the psychological aspect of living in such a confined area. You sleep, eat and relax in your room. You can go out an have fun in one of the many buildings designed for a larger number of people because it's inevitable that some psychologist is going to bring up the mental aspects of such "confined" living.

END POINTS

I'm not 100% that I covered everything in an easily understandable manner. If you have any questions or just want to shoot down my arguments, then feel free to.

PS. Did a bit of Googling. Try looking into Silica Monofibers for your plastic manufacturing needs. Lightest plastic but 15x stronger than steel.

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Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:43 pm
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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
I agree with Deske on this: the keyword for living on the red planet is LIGHT. Light and sturdy materials. Nanotechnology is advancing faster than we thought, and we can already have carbon-based, interesting materials.
The real danger of housing on the surface of Mars lays with meteorites. Even a small swarm of pebble-sized thingies could inflict a severe damage to the city. We need a thik honeycomb structure made of some gelatinous material. It couldn't stop a trolley-sized rock, but a defense could be set up for those, it would surely be planned at least, wherever, again, the most common occurrence is the micrometeorites.
As for psychological effects of living in an enclosed structure, here VR can come to our aid: a fully sensorial experience can help one relax better than...just playing chess or do sport, or anything else with the full knowledge that you can't get out.
Of course, the side effect is, someone is bound to suffer an addiction crisis, and this would make for an interesting plot...

PS - Please, let's not just laugh out other people's ideas: this is supposed to be a place of exchange in fun and reason.

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Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:14 pm
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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
The addition of the PS to my post wasn't to laugh at his ideas if that's what you're referring to. I meant to only post for the housing component of his post, but he went on to talk about plastics for the greenhouse and you would need plastics for dwellings as well, so I did a bit of googling for strong plastics. Silica Monofibers just happened to pop up. I put it in the post because if he wanted to do more research on it then he could.

Honestly, I don't think small meteorites are going to be much of an issue. This is mostly conjecture because I haven't spent the time to look at actual publications on it, but still... Micrometeorites are only truly a problem in space because there is no atmosphere to slow them down. So instead of slowing down to around an inch per second as they do in Earths atmosphere, they just keep moving faster. This'll be a very big issue when it comes to Earth to Mars transport as it is probably unavoidable that we'll have to contend with them at some point. These are so small that they just slow down instead of burning up in an atmosphere, to about 1 inch per second or so, which is less than half a mile per hour. Extrapolate that to an atmosphere that's thinner, about 100 times thinner than Earths, and you end up with an impact speed of around 5.7 mph (9.1 K/h). That's just for the small stuff thought. I can't really say for the larger things. Mars is closer to the asteroid belt so it would make sense that it would get hit more. Luckily Jupiter keeps most of the asteroids out of the inner planets, thank you L-points.
If it is really an issue having to avoid meteors and such, Mars has caves. Early settlements could be placed in these caves with a sealable entrance, protecting it from things from space and from dust storms. So far, I don't think Mars is too active on the tectonic side of things, so collapses and Mars-quakes shouldn't really be a big worry.

As for VR being an aid to prevent psychological breakdowns, I don't know if we should go strictly with VR. Humans and the animals that are probably going to join us in our endeavor are social animals. Perhaps AR might be better suited to multiple people in one of those designated buildings suited for accommodating more people and providing forms of entertainment. VR would be better for socializing between colonies. I don't know if there are any differences in resource usage between AR and VR, but if AR is less resource intensive, it would probably be better suited to intra-colonial socializing. I guess it also depends on your definition of Virtual Reality.

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Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:25 pm
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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
Yeah Deske like I said what I said could have been done 200% better, I stuck with the heavier steel and concrete structures because those are what I understand best. I figured once I went over a metric ton anyways it would have been too much to get into space by chemical rocket. Tried finding what they build all the space stuff out of anyways and for me it did not come up with much, looking up the structures I did well I got that big list of words and math. It is rather amazing how heavy people design large structures, moving all that material around and raising up that weight in most cases. I was not saying get any of that into space, it was more of like a, if you had those materials on Mars, this is what Earth counterpart I can compare it too. Because building an exact replica of the Willis Tower would be indeed be hilarious and very American to try and pull something like that off.

Besides the project idea is to get over 555 individuals to Mars, I do not know how many people our shuttles can get into space at a time (Given the fact that, the Americans rely on the Russians to get people to space still?) seems like there would have to be a lot of trips anyways. And given the idea of sending all the ones that require food, water, and air off all together. That is a lot of weight with just that alone right there, given that it takes a few months to reach Mars. I figured even with the light material one will end up looking at kilotons of weight whether they like it or not, it is just so many people to have to take care of to get them sustainable. Like the current plan now is to just get six people to Mars to start a place up and then leave after some time.

Tried looking up the silica nanofibers, found that they stronger than steel like you said and thinner than the human hair. Did not find a weight for it when used over a distance or layered. Same thing for most building material. I guess it just makes it easier to say it happened than trying to do the numbers and underestimate things. Though it probably would be best to build underground and just bring the weight of the digging equipment and not all the materials necessary for walls, floors, and roofs. And it is not just the meteorites and rocks from space, that 60 mile per hour wind has a lot of dust in it that wears into things, not as bad as Lunar dust though. With an increasing atmosphere on Mars that dust will just worse. Oh and bigger structures have to deal with more strain with pressure differences between the inside and outside, though the International Space Station handles it fine. Lets just say the building did get punctured, the air would be pushed out and not in, gives people more time to get out and to safety.

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Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:02 am
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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
Hmmm...what about building part of the structures using local rocks and sand? I mean, there is already this ongoing project for a solar-powered 3dprinter HERE. By optimizing the solar energy concentration, we could create materials for the infrastructures without ovens
Also, of course the whole place must have a very spartan look, we need a uniform design for everything so that every piece is easily built and replaced in the shortest time possible.

ENERGY
Thinking about it, with an optimized solar cell system, it could be possible to extract even more energy from the higher, unfiltered irradiation from the Sun, waddayathink?

RECYCLING
Macabre as it sounds, it is important that NOTHING gets wasted. And this should include all corpses, regardless of the species. The best way to honor the dead would be to make sure that they are properly recycled, for example as fertilizers for the greenhouses.

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Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:32 am
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Post Re: Blue Mars Colonization Project, or, Space: 2020
I was thinking...In order to start an atmosphere, we could use algae that eats up the CO2 and produce Oxygen.
Problem is, it would take a ton of bureaucracy before it gets started: already there will be integralist shouting murder at the idea of a permanent colony, but introducing a GM life-form would be seen as desecration of the planet...

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