2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by fenrirblack »

Character development is great and King does develop nicely (kudos Rick). All I'm saying is that his parents are the root of his more troubling emotional issues. Issues that truthfully have been healed by Bailey and Fox. But look how he treats his kids. He strives so hard to make sure that nothing happens to them. The way he acts really makes me believe that he is so happy with his life because his life before was so bad. He finally got the family he never had growing up.
https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -the-king/

His issues with Bino are an entire other problem that I'm sure his therapist will get too one day. Yes animals seem to have problems with him for some reason but aside from Bino (whose a jerk to everyone) it is still his parents fault that his pets hurt him. That indirectly caused him to be beaten while working for PETA which he admits. He joined PETA to try to ensure that animals don't end up like his.

If his parents were better people in the first place Joel's life would be dramatically different. Whether or not better, we'll never know.

I'm also saying that his parents should have recognized that Joel needed help but instead they kicked him to the curb and look what happened to him. Take his mother for example, Joel shows up in heaven as a corgi and all she can say is "Looks like your father won that bet after all" and it sounds even worse when you read the alt-text. What no tears or even a question about why her son was there and a dog?
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by Champion Wallace »

CHAOKOCartoons wrote:
Champion Wallace wrote:
CHAOKOCartoons wrote:"If he likes his animals so much, lets see how much he likes living like one! He'll come crawling back and be better for it, just you watch!"
The only one saying that about Joel was King. Pete couldn't care less if he became a better person by being a dog, the only reason he did it was with the options still available to him, turning Joel into a corgi gave him the avatar with the best stats.
I meant his parents. The ones in the punchline of the comic's joke.

Pete is not King's parent(s). :lol:
Regardless of if his parents are evil or not, I don't think that is the kind of thing they would say. Joel's compassion for animals hasn't ever been shown to be something his parents resent. Personally, I don't think they were bad parents. I’m Never Going To Understand Humans and One Person You Meet In Heaven haven't been the only direct mention of Joel's parents, there was also All the King’s Men, part 1. There we learn his family was poor and couldn't afford to give their pets the luxuries the cast from Babylon Gardens enjoys. In The Unbearable Lightness of Being a Dog King and Bailey have this same debate. Babylon Gardens is a very pet friendly neighborhood, but elsewhere, when the going gets tough and there isn't enough money or circumstances change, is it wrong for parents to think of their children first?
fenrirblack wrote:You just know. You know. You can just tell. In your mind when she speaks you hear this attitude that tells you that she was just horrible. Maybe not abusive but not mother of the year either. In my mind I always imagine her as Narcissa Malfoy.
fenrirblack wrote:From a psychological standpoint Joel blames animals because 1. They were the ones who kidnapped him true. 2. At that young age he probably did not know that he should have blamed his parents as well. 3. Adult Joel probably does know that his parents are to blame partly for what happened to him. He can't take his frustrations out on them so he goes for the next best thing. 4. Despite everything he may know that his parents were the source of his problems or at least doesn't admit it in the comics. Because his parents were the the ones who abused the pets so they were the first domino to fall in a sense. 5. There is no indication they were doing anything for the best for Joel. If they wanted what was best for Joel then someone should have asked what happened to him and why he's been missing for nine years. 6. He could be in a state of denial.
Well, if our bar for evidence is set that low and we're telling stories to reinforce our personal biases, maybe his parents were very supportive but as a teenager he went anti-establishment and shut them out.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by fenrirblack »

It's a discussion. We are discussing the comics. Evidence or not this is how discussions work. We are doing the best we can with what we have. You have to look at them from all angles. Trust me I've sat through enough of them to know that this is usually how they work. Someone says something and someone disagrees. We pull evidence from the text to try to prove a point. Someone goes off on some tangent and someone else says something that is not relevant and someone comments because they want to be included in the discussion. The original point is argued then we move on to the next point. It is a endless cycle. That is the point of the forums right. Like minded people/fans coming together to discuss the comics. We are discussing the comics.
Unfortunately in the end no one knows who is right because we didn't write the story so we don't know the author's intent. But we do it anyway because we're graded on participation.

Honestly this is way more interesting than the things we talk about in class like Shakespeare or ridiculous collections of short stories.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by KJOokami »

Champion Wallace wrote:Babylon Gardens is a very pet friendly neighborhood, but elsewhere, when the going gets tough and there isn't enough money or circumstances change, is it wrong for parents to think of their children first?
This idea kinda falls flat for a couple reasons. The first being that it's pretty heavily implied in I'm Never Going to Understand Humans that his parents didn't just passively prioritize Joel over the pets, but actively treated the pets poorly. The image of young Joel sitting in front of the crying white cat, with his arms around it in a protective position, paints a pretty clear picture of what Joel at least interpreted as unnecessarily harsh treatment. That sort of image is usually associated with domestic violence, but given the somewhat light-hearted approach Rick often takes with this comic, it could simply be verbal abuse. Either way, it's not a good look for the parents there.

And the second reason I can't get behind this line of thinking is because they forced Joel out of the house the instant he hit adulthood. Meaning, they didn't exactly treat Joel so great either. Granted, we can take that a couple ways. It could be that he became a highly disrespectful teenager who was in constant battles with his parents, he refused to take any opportunities to better himself, and the expulsion from his home falls on his own head as much as his parents. Personally, I don't think so. It's impossible to know the full extent of the issues his parents had, but I've always been a big believer in the idea that you can learn a lot about how people will treat other people by looking at how they treat animals. And everything we've seen in the comics suggests that they did not treat their pets well at all. For that reason, I find it much more likely that any conflict that may have arisen between the time Joel was kidnapped by his pets and when he was sent off on his own to stem back to his parents.

This, of course, led Joel to being ill-prepared for the real world. And we know what happened from there. Barely scraping by, making stupid decisions, and finding himself at odds with the law due to association with bad groups of people.

I dunno. Might never know for sure, but I just have a very hard time seeing Joel's parents as being anything but unpleasant--and even abusive--people.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by TendoTwo »

To be fair, a livestreaming videogaming wolf would probably be popular just based on that angle... and the fact that they aren't just using Facerig.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by fenrirblack »

I thought about something last night during my walk on the beach. When Fox and King went to heaven there was a interesting contrast. Fox’s mom actually showed genuine shock and Fox ran over to her. The she started asking the questions one expects from your mother when you meet in heaven. Then there’s Joel/King’s mom. No emotion, no questions, not even a hug. Joel was even embarrassed that he was a dog and she saw him. She was just “ehh”.

This may be my opinion but I think Rick did that on purpose to show how much of a overwhelming difference their is between the two families. Whether that was a general statement about animals and humans is debatable.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by Obbl »

I'm of a different opinion. I think the reason Joel's mom may come off as uncaring is because her lines are the end of strip joke. King's very embarrassed because he's a corgi, but his mom is completely unconcerned about that particular detail in favor of another small detail. That's the joke. *cymbals* Then we skip over the rest of their conversation, so we don't really get a good sense of her relationship with Joel.

As a note about today's strip, you might notice that King is much more contemplative about his parents' kicking him out as opposed to upset, indicating that he doesn't truly disagree with their decision. We also don't know when they kicked him out (despite some speculating that they kicked him out right when he turned 18), so it could have been once he turned 21 or 23 and clearly was using his parents as a crutch. Baby bird has to learn to fly and all that.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by NHWestoN »

Could be, Obbi. Maybe parenthood has mellowed or matured our corgi enough to reflect on his own background and relations with his parents.

I'm guessing that after his pets kidnapped him, he eventually returned to his parents where his conflicts with them continued. He does at least one stint in the slammer so he continued to be a handful before the "camping trip kick-out." When we first meet him in the van with "the fat man" and the captured Fox, he discloses that he started with ASPCA, joined PETA because he was concerned what a background check might uncover (Ah Ha Moment!), and reveals some real moral reservation about the whole catch-and-release kidnapping tactic as well as the mental coherence of his chubby partner. When he's arrested, Joel again shows his mental and emotional ambiguities. He professes his devotion to animals as his prime motive for his actions but then gets into Fido's face, accusing him and all animals of being just like the pets who stole and abused him.

So King/Joel has come along way and being part of both the Luneburg family and the Miles Pack likely broadened and gentled his perspective a tad. Regards.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

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Wait I Thought His Pet's Took Him With Them:?:"
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by fenrirblack »

There was always something that bothered me about that statement Joel’s mom says. It’s not really a joke. I mean how was that even funny. The alttext even less so. Maybe it’s just because I’m reading this other book right this moment but what if Joel’s mom knew more than she was letting on. About what I can’t be sure. I know Rick doesn’t like when people take the comic too seriously but considering Heavens Not Enough was the most serious arc, I wonder if he was playing with something. Some idea that was scraped.
Joel’s mothers character is so strange. We see her once and yet she has had such a huge impact on Joel/Kings life and not just because she was his mother. Whether or not she’s a horrible person doesn’t matter as much as trying to discovering who she really is.

Yeah, it’s definitely the book talking.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by Obbl »

I meant a joke for us, the readers. Each strip ends with a joke. This one is an example of playing with expectations. It's a joke for our benefit. Reading a lot into Joel's mom's personality based on one line that is meant to be a joke for us is probably not going to give you a lot of good insight.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

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Obbl wrote:I meant a joke for us, the readers. Each strip ends with a joke. This one is an example of playing with expectations. It's a joke for our benefit. Reading a lot into Joel's mom's personality based on one line that is meant to be a joke for us is probably not going to give you a lot of good insight.
Joke or not, it is another piece of the puzzle. It carries more meaning when you take it into account with everything else we know about Joel/King's parents. It doesn't carry much weight until you add it in with everything else. Plus it is a lot like the last strip. Joel/King's parents kicking him out is not much of a joke either. Depending on how you interpret it, the reader and King could either see it as "oh that's what they were doing, being good parents" or "oh, that's what they were doing, man they were mean and I'm glad I'm not like them."
Looking back a lot of King's strips ended on sour notes. Example: https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... somewhere/

Then there is still the case of the father. I've said it once and I'll say it again. Nine years and King never once talked to his father. If you are in an estranged relationship with your father then something tells me that your childhood was not the best. Even if there are many possibilities and arguments for what happened between them (other than he kicked Joel to the curb) I feel like it is arguable that Joel's father too was/is a horrible person. Given it would Not the easiest phone call, saying "Hey, Dad I'm a dog now. Like a literal dog with fur and a stubby tail. Please help because I'm a prisoner of a all-powerful bird god thing. Here's my address. This is your SON by the way."

In conclusion (yes I said it) we actually know more horrible things about Joel's parents than good which says a lot about them and who they are. I'm doing my best with what I have.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by Obbl »

I agree that based on what we know about Joel's dad, the best conclusion to draw is that he wasn't a very good person. But the conclusion that Joel's mom is also a bad person is, to me, more of a refusal to take everything we know into account.

Or, like, for this strip. Yes, you could read it as "oh, that's what they were doing, man they were mean and I'm glad I'm not like them." Except that King is very clearly drawing a parallel between the advice he's just given to Miles and his parents' actions. And it's not bad advice per se. To me, this indicates that, if we take everything we have into account, the more charitable reading is closer to the truth.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

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Obbl wrote:I agree that based on what we know about Joel's dad, the best conclusion to draw is that he wasn't a very good person. But the conclusion that Joel's mom is also a bad person is, to me, more of a refusal to take everything we know into account.

Or, like, for this strip. Yes, you could read it as "oh, that's what they were doing, man they were mean and I'm glad I'm not like them." Except that King is very clearly drawing a parallel between the advice he's just given to Miles and his parents' actions. And it's not bad advice per se. To me, this indicates that, if we take everything we have into account, the more charitable reading is closer to the truth.
Okay, what do we know then? Let's "start" (I used quotes because we've been at this for two days) there then. What do we know about Joel's mother other than she was mean to his pets which caused the infamous kidnapping, she was part of a duel decision to kick Joel out of the house for whatever reason, and she did not appear to care at all about what happened to Joel when they met in heaven? How is she a good person per se? Or at the very least not a "horrible" person?
Joel was messed up for a reason when he was first introduced. Blame it on animals or his own bad choices but his parents are not innocent either.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by Liam »

Better start the career counseling now, I don't want to see Rockstar Hawk make the news for a "heated gaming moment" he head on stream...
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

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fenrirblack wrote:What do we know about Joel's mother other than she was mean to his pets which caused the infamous kidnapping, she was part of a duel decision to kick Joel out of the house for whatever reason, and she did not appear to care at all about what happened to Joel when they met in heaven?
Well, we know the last one is an opinion held by you that I do not share, and seems to me to be more of a conclusion drawn after making the assumption that she is a bad person. And the second to last one only counts against her if it was done out of callousness instead of an attempt to be a good parent, against such reading I've already stated my reasons.
That leaves us with exactly one thing that we really know: [Joel's] parents treated [his pets] harshly. This is certainly wrong to do, but it's literally the only thing about their mortal lives that we really know for certain. Crucifying either of his parents for this would be unfair, but especially given that his mother apparently ended up in heaven, it seems unreasonable to take that as the sum total of her person.

And, yes, Joel is messed up. And, yes, his parents aren't completely innocent in that matter. But the fact that he was hurt more deeply by his pets turning on him after a few nights on the streets than anything else his parents may have done also has to count for something. His resentment had always been toward animals, because every time he looked at them he couldn't help but think they would turn on him at a moment's notice just like his pets had. But he's never openly expressed resentment toward his parents.

I agree that we can't know for certain that his parents weren't literally the worst people ever, but we also have no where near enough to draw a reasonable conclusion that they were either, and we know one thing that at least hints toward his mother being good.
Continue to hold whatever opinion you want, but I don't see it's as clear cut as you seem to be expressing.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

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I'm of a mind that as long as you draw breath, you can change your life for the better. Doesn't mean that you won't experience consequences for your past actions, though. In the mother's case, maybe she did, and that's how she passed into Heaven, but the long-term being that she doesn't have any sort of positive relationship with Joel at all. And frankly, this may just be me, but King never seemed to be the forgiving type to me. Granted, he has some good reasons, but he seems overly cynical. Perhaps his mother was acknowledging that it would have been a fruitless endeavor when she met him after who knows how long?

Now, let's assume that Joel's parents were terrible to him. If his mother turned her life around, those scars will still exist, so it wouldn't be unheard of that Joel still wouldn't accept her. Doesn't mean she's unsalvageable, just that she messed up a chance.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by KJOokami »

D-Rock wrote:I'm of a mind that as long as you draw breath, you can change your life for the better. Doesn't mean that you won't experience consequences for your past actions, though. In the mother's case, maybe she did, and that's how she passed into Heaven, but the long-term being that she doesn't have any sort of positive relationship with Joel at all.
This is my thinking as well. The fact she ended up in heaven seems more a case of her turning her life around (much like Joel did himself after being turned into King; so there's a potential literary parallel there as well) than it does a case of her actually being a better person than the descriptions--limited and vague, though they were--we got of her from Joel/King.

Additionally, to your point, Obbl, about King's contemplation in the most recent strip. I feel like you're looking at it backwards. The order of the statements makes a pretty big difference when determining what King means by it. The strip is about him giving advice to Miles about how to handle his kids, so his first statement of "Why not force them into an environment where they might be unhappy to make them appreciate what they currently have more." is his attempt at advice. The following contemplation, then, becomes more of a "Hm. On second thought, maybe that's not such a good idea."

The point being that King immediately wonders if doing that might mess Miles' pups up mentally the way his parents kicking him out of the house did to him.

Although, the comparison itself doesn't really measure up because Miles is going camping *with* his pups to show them how "bad" nature is by comparison to their current living situation, where Joel's parents kicking him out left him out to dry completely with no support system. If they'd tracked him down after a few weeks and taken him back in after he'd "learned his lesson", the comparison might make more sense.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

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KJOokami wrote:The point being that King immediately wonders if doing that might mess Miles' pups up mentally the way his parents kicking him out of the house did to him.
I get where you're coming from, but I really gotta ask. Does being kicked out of the house really mess people up? (If they're old enough and capable of living on their own of course). I mean, my parents didn't kick me out, but I was only staying with them because it was a lot cheaper than moving out. There were plenty of times I almost wished they would kick me out just so I would be forced to take on more responsibilities and grow as a person. Especially if Joel was "drifting for years" without getting anywhere in life, it doesn't seem like an unreasonable idea to me that a parent might think their child just needs a push out of their comfort zone. In these cases where parents are kicking their adult child out, the child is usually welcome to drop on by if they need anything, it's just time for them to let go of their reliance on their parents.
Is that just me? Cause when viewed from this light, it makes it exceptionally hard to see kicking Joel out as anything bad.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by KJOokami »

Everyone is different. But the mere fact Joel ended up drifting for years, and was arrested multiple times before the whole incident with Pete giving him an opportunity to turn his life around, says to me that Joel was clearly not ready to be out in the real world on his own. Even if you feel in your mind that you *want* to leave, as in your case, it's the difference between having the time to plan out your next move and making that move yourself, and being tossed out into the world with no plan and little or no support.

So to answer your question: yes. A million times, yes. Suddenly thrusting someone out of their support circle and forcing them to live on their own without a means of supporting themselves already lined up can absolutely mess somebody up. Just think about what would have happened if Joel *hadn't* been turned into a corgi by Pete and placed back into a position where supporting himself financially was a non-issue again? Maybe eventually he would have found a way to stabilize himself, but in all likelihood he would have just continued to drift, taking odd jobs where he could, and ending up in and out of prison. Ultimately, it ended up being a positive thing for King (which is probably why he isn't as angry as he could be), but the only reason he didn't end up homeless or a convict is because of literal celestial intervention. People don't get that in real life.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by Zenir »

fenrirblack wrote:
Welsh Halfwit wrote:For King, meeting Jessica would be bad enough. Imagine if he met... Craig...
*loud gasp*

We all want more King. Everybody loves King. Roses cover the stage when King appears.
Am I the only one that doesn't really like King? xD *gets lynched by the forumites*
jokes aside, maybe I feel that way just 'cause when he first appeared he stole the spotlight from other characters... I guess...
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by NHWestoN »

Some short shots...

Joel/King was apparently about twelve when the pets kidnapped him so he likely spent several years still with his parents ... and probably no more pets.

Given the sarcasm that he uses on Pete and others, Joel probably gave his parents "as good as he got." He was hardly a passive teen, I'll wager, and did the classic rebellious son speech and behaviors.

Given what we know of Joel's wretched parents, it's pretty obvious why he didn't seek help from his old man ... who would have done. .... what?

C.S.Lewis once said that, if you get to Heaven, you're gonna have two big surprises. First, running into all those you never expected to meet there. Second, all the folks who'll greet you with "Hello, I sure didn't expect to see you here!" Joel's mom is a testimony perhaps to Bahamut's compassion and, as her encounter with King displays, she remains a work in progress.

In offering King his choice of dog or human, Kitsune entices him to humanity with "your old broken life will be fixed, criminal record expunged..." Again, a little insight, a nugget of revelation.

Joel/king is a creature of deep internal conflicts, which is part of why people like him ("how do you get other's to fight your battles for you?") and also why he's tiresome, annoying, and insensitive. His gift for outrage gives him courage but also feeds his cynicism and anxiety, his sense that happiness is a delusion and there's always a razor blade in the candy dish. How much more knowing the details of his origins would reveal certainly relates to what advice he gives Miles but that's for Rick to unfold.

Anyways, Zenir, I like King well enough but, since I don't want to irk his true fans, I'll just say he's not my very favoritest and go quietly.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by fenrirblack »

Obbl wrote:Well, we know the last one is an opinion held by you that I do not share, and seems to me to be more of a conclusion drawn after making the assumption that she is a bad person. And the second to last one only counts against her if it was done out of callousness instead of an attempt to be a good parent, against such reading I've already stated my reasons.
That leaves us with exactly one thing that we really know: [Joel's] parents treated [his pets] harshly. This is certainly wrong to do, but it's literally the only thing about their mortal lives that we really know for certain. Crucifying either of his parents for this would be unfair, but especially given that his mother apparently ended up in heaven, it seems unreasonable to take that as the sum total of her person.

And, yes, Joel is messed up. And, yes, his parents aren't completely innocent in that matter. But the fact that he was hurt more deeply by his pets turning on him after a few nights on the streets than anything else his parents may have done also has to count for something. His resentment had always been toward animals, because every time he looked at them he couldn't help but think they would turn on him at a moment's notice just like his pets had. But he's never openly expressed resentment toward his parents.

I agree that we can't know for certain that his parents weren't literally the worst people ever, but we also have no where near enough to draw a reasonable conclusion that they were either, and we know one thing that at least hints toward his mother being good.
Continue to hold whatever opinion you want, but I don't see it's as clear cut as you seem to be expressing.
If we didn’t disagree with one another the we would have nothing to talk about while we wait for the next strip to come out. I sincerely hope that we just go straight to the camping instead of just building up to it.

On the topic of his father since NHWeston brought it up with “Given what we know of Joel's wretched parents, it's pretty obvious why he didn't seek help from his old man ... who would have done. .... what?” Mr. Robinson could have tried to help his son. He could drive to Babylon Gardens, met King outside the house, King jumps in and they sped off. Even if Pete tracked them down it would be nice to see his father at least attempt to help.
Plus it would be funny to see that phone call anyway.

Another thing. Are we just assuming that Joel’s mother is not a horrible person just because she was in heaven? If she had not died and was still alive then would she be a horrible person? To me it seems like in this universe as long as you don’t commit some horrific act of evil then your pretty much guaranteed heaven. Joel’s mother can still be a horrible person but live her life properly enough to get into heaven. I don’t know how or who decides who ends up where but to me the bar is set pretty low.
GameCobra wrote:Oooo, we gonna see some reckless teenagers/cats/dogs in the woods? Will there be a hockey mask killer on the loose? Are we going to scare King silly?!?
Friday the thirteenth is this month so fingers crossed.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by NHWestoN »

"Nothing's impossible. Only improbable." the Mad Hatter.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by fenrirblack »

How can you read this strip and not love him? https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... -languish/
His parents would be so proud if they could see him now. :roll: Although I’m starting to see why they kicked him out. :|

OMG I just noticed https://www.housepetscomic.com/comic/20 ... nows-best/ Oh karma. :D
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by Sleet »

So basically King, the human-turned-dog, is gonna be less soft with camping than literal wolf pups. Lovely. :P
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by Argent »

Sleet wrote:So basically King, the human-turned-dog, is gonna be less soft with camping than literal wolf pups. Lovely. :P
We don't know that, but it's likely. And would be pretty amusing.
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by Silly Zealot »

TendoTwo wrote:To be fair, a livestreaming videogaming wolf would probably be popular just based on that angle... and the fact that they aren't just using Facerig.
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20th century fox? Given that this is the year 2020, that fox must be dead by now. Sadface! : (

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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by rourkie »

All I have to say is there better be marshmallows and LOTS of s'mores...
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

Post by D-Rock »

All of the camping staples. Likely courtesy of Big Daryl. Or they'll end up going back to hunting.

This does raise the question, human-style camping or return-to-wolf-roots camping? :P
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

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Argent wrote:Image
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Re: 2018/06/29 - The Fear Of Dog

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House42 wrote:
Argent wrote:Image
Guess who has two thumbs and isn't sleeping tonight...
Me
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