2015/09/11 - Spectator Sport

HundKatzeMaus · Post by **HundKatzeMaus** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:46 am

The last panel is just adorable

Actually come to think of it: This is for Grape just a massive fanservice. Not that there are two hunks fighting each other, they could also be character from Prideland...okay Satau not so much, but he could still fit

Bill in OK · Post by **Bill in OK** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:06 am

So.... is Grape --- shall we say, enraptured by Satau? or by Sabrekitty? Or by the tension between them? I guess that's something we're left to make up our own minds about.

Also, because I may be out of pocket on Monday, I'd like to be the first to say, in advance...

: HappyBirthdayRick.png (195.89 KiB) Viewed 10720 times

(At least according to the comment on this post.)

Yes, I spent quite a lot of time on this.... slow work day.

Cesco · Post by **Cesco** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:41 pm

Phew! For a little, Grape saved your life, Peanut...

You see, in some situations, you need to be a bit less yourself.

Do the thing? What thing?

Oh yeah, and you're doing it with style, Satau, you're looking great!

Hey Grape, I know it's because of your hunk sense again, but go easy with Maxwell's intact ear.

Eh, you all prefer to see the combat show instead than go back home. Now it's really the time to take some photos, Peanut.

Awesome comic strip.

Amazee Dayzee · Post by **Amazee Dayzee** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:27 pm

If we want to see Grape really flustered and needing to jump in a lake, we should have them fall in a mud pit. :3

dryideabat · Post by **dryideabat** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:50 pm

I know that the sabercat's eyes are pink/red because he's furious, but it almost made me wonder if he's Kitsune's avatar. I mean, he did just endure a super-powered punch. Then again, he's a giant cat and not glowing or anything like that.

KingFan202 · Post by **KingFan202** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:54 pm

I cant stop looking at Satau he just looks so intentionally vague visage xD

Post by **Dissension** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:06 pm

dryideabat wrote:I know that the sabercat's eyes are pink/red because he's furious, but it almost made me wonder if he's Kitsune's avatar. I mean, he did just endure a super-powered punch. Then again, he's a giant cat and not glowing or anything like that.

As game master and adjudicator of the duel between The Spirit Dragon and Pete, The Great Kitsune does not have an avatar. The only entities with avatars in the Housepets! dimension were the aforementioned contestants.

cuteycindyhoney · Post by **cuteycindyhoney** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:11 pm

Peanut, Peanut, Peanut...Grape isn't angry, trust me. She's in fangirl heaven watching an epic Battle of the Hunks. Oh, and Max? You're soon going to reach symmetry, I'm sorry to say! Just roll with it. There might be some quality snuggles when all this is over!

Niara · Post by **Niara** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:12 pm

To Welsh,

They're living the life NOW. In 2015. AFTER the game has finished. Tarot and crew are currently 3000BCE, when the game is on. Thus Dragon is about. So she can answer the call to action. And may have some questions for Satau later...

See, that's the difference between subjective time and objective time.

The reason that things like Pete's 'time served' trick works is because they experience what we perceive as the flow of time in an objective way.

It doesn't (or shouldn't) matter that we're now thousands of years in the BC, when the game, form our mortal perspective and time-measurement was still on. To a being that experiences time only objectively, the act of incarnating into a mortal form when the game was lost removes them from play... not just subjectively 'now' after the game is finished (because if it was just another subjective sentence, then both Pete and Dragon could have popped back again right away and chatted with one another about what a drag that many years long mortal life had been), but objectively in the absolute: the moment the decision was made and their forfeit paid, Dragon and Pete were (or should have been) out of action At ALL times, from our perspective.

The power might still be there, as it was, but Dragon herself has had her entire personal agency locked into a subjective snatch of time to live a mortal life in the HousePets present day... She isn't -Here-, and by definition -cannot- be here.

Macsen · Post by **Macsen** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:16 pm

I don't think she's angry. I think she's smitten. <3

DigitalBrave3 · Post by **DigitalBrave3** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:31 pm

Grape is too cute in the last panel.

Buster · Post by **Buster** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:47 pm

Niara wrote:To Welsh,

They're living the life NOW. In 2015. AFTER the game has finished. Tarot and crew are currently 3000BCE, when the game is on. Thus Dragon is about. So she can answer the call to action. And may have some questions for Satau later...
See, that's the difference between subjective time and objective time.

The reason that things like Pete's 'time served' trick works is because they experience what we perceive as the flow of time in an objective way.

It doesn't (or shouldn't) matter that we're now thousands of years in the BC, when the game, form our mortal perspective and time-measurement was still on. To a being that experiences time only objectively, the act of incarnating into a mortal form when the game was lost removes them from play... not just subjectively 'now' after the game is finished (because if it was just another subjective sentence, then both Pete and Dragon could have popped back again right away and chatted with one another about what a drag that many years long mortal life had been), but objectively in the absolute: the moment the decision was made and their forfeit paid, Dragon and Pete were (or should have been) out of action At ALL times, from our perspective.

The power might still be there, as it was, but Dragon herself has had her entire personal agency locked into a subjective snatch of time to live a mortal life in the HousePets present day... She isn't -Here-, and by definition -cannot- be here.

Trying to explain nonlinear time to those who don't get it never works.

Saturn381 · Post by **Saturn381** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:24 pm

Kitch wrote:I don't think she's angry. I think she's smitten. <3

Peanut: But Grape, you told me one time that you think of cats when it comes to romance.

Grape: Uh.... I can explain.

Buster · Post by **Buster** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:02 am

that or her proximity to muscular males is messing with her judgement, and her mind is stuck in fangirl mode; interpreting the fight through a "Foe Yay Shipping" lens.

Amazee Dayzee · Post by **Amazee Dayzee** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:08 am

I think she's just drooling over Satau and not over the saber cat who nearly brained her brother.

Also, the saber cat's eyes are red because Peanut flashed a camera in his face. Before Peanut did that, his eyes were white.

Post by **Obbl** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:51 am

Niara wrote:See, that's the difference between subjective time and objective time.

The reason that things like Pete's 'time served' trick works is because they experience what we perceive as the flow of time in an objective way.

It doesn't (or shouldn't) matter that we're now thousands of years in the BC, when the game, form our mortal perspective and time-measurement was still on. To a being that experiences time only objectively, the act of incarnating into a mortal form when the game was lost removes them from play... not just subjectively 'now' after the game is finished (because if it was just another subjective sentence, then both Pete and Dragon could have popped back again right away and chatted with one another about what a drag that many years long mortal life had been), but objectively in the absolute: the moment the decision was made and their forfeit paid, Dragon and Pete were (or should have been) out of action At ALL times, from our perspective.

The power might still be there, as it was, but Dragon herself has had her entire personal agency locked into a subjective snatch of time to live a mortal life in the HousePets present day... She isn't -Here-, and by definition -cannot- be here.

Why would it be specifically "our" perspective? What's so special about our perspective in all this? If they experience time in a subjective manner, shouldn't they be everywhere/everywhen from our perspective anyway? When could they not be "in play"? "Present them" is locked into a mortal frame of mind and frame of experience, but "Past them" "was" everywhen and "future them" "will be" everywhen, so how would we know the difference?
And for the purpose of the game it appears they were traversing the timeline in a linear fashion, so times in our past correspond with a "past them" anyway, and no matter when our heroes traveled to "past" Dragon and Pete would be there. Or does this mean that Dragon's no longer in play at times when she was in play previously? All those conversations with Tarot and her previous avatars are suddenly not happening even though they did certainly occur? We're in the time 5000BC. Dragon was there playing U&U in 5000BC with her second avatar, Satau, from the perspective of all the people living in 5000BC. These are events on a timeline that is not subjective, and since Dragon was in play during this time frame, it stands to reason that anything she "did" in interacting with Satau or the group that is "upcoming" (from our perspective) has "already happened" and is part of the not subjective timeline.

That and Rick's telling a story and will fudge any details he needs to in order to tell a good story

Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:00 am

subjective vs objective time doesn't mean they're erased from time.
to us, time is objective. it always moves forward, and there aren't alternative timelines anyone can live.
but subjectively, a time traveler can live a thousand years (or in pete's case serve a 100000 year sentence) and then return to the exact time they left. to them, ages have passed in what others see as the blink of an eye. and the traveler/prisoner can return and pick up exactly where they left off.

but with dragon and Pete living a mortal life, they're stuck experiencing the however many years they live, when they return to heaven, time will have passed for everyone at the same rate, whatever lives they had will be at least difficult and possibly impossible to resume.

(pretty much what Obbl said, but I think it may be a bit less confusing without all the "will have happened" stuff)

Buster · Post by **Buster** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:12 am

Obbl wrote:Why would it be specifically "our" perspective? What's so special about our perspective in all this? If they experience time in a subjective manner, shouldn't they be everywhere/everywhen from our perspective anyway? When could they not be "in play"? "Present them" is locked into a mortal frame of mind and frame of experience, but "Past them" "was" everywhen and "future them" "will be" everywhen, so how would we know the difference?
And for the purpose of the game it appears they were traversing the timeline in a linear fashion, so times in our past correspond with a "past them" anyway, and no matter when our heroes traveled to "past" Dragon and Pete would be there. Or does this mean that Dragon's no longer in play at times when she was in play previously? All those conversations with Tarot and her previous avatars are suddenly not happening even though they did certainly occur? We're in the time 5000BC. Dragon was there playing U&U in 5000BC with her second avatar, Satau, from the perspective of all the people living in 5000BC. These are events on a timeline that is not subjective, and since Dragon was in play during this time frame, it stands to reason that anything she "did" in interacting with Satau or the group that is "upcoming" (from our perspective) has "already happened" and is part of the not subjective timeline.

That and Rick's telling a story and will fudge any details he needs to in order to tell a good story

I'm pretty sure that Niara was trying to imply that though there are pre-existing interactions with dragon in this time, because of the subjective nature of dragon's interaction with time, no new events involving her can occur at any point in the time line. regardless if it's before or after her defeat, because the distinction between "before" or "after" is a linear, objective, one.

Thank you so much, DS9, for having aliens with nonlinear perceptions of time that have to interact with the cast.

Post by **Obbl** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:14 am

But this is only a "new" event from our perspective. There are plenty of perspectives from which these events are old as dirt (and they also include us interestingly

)
And since the game is played linearly, a linear perspective of it isn't really a bad way to look at things

Niara · Post by **Niara** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:48 am

It's not 'our perspective' that's in issue - it's Dragon's.

I grounded things in terms of the mortal perspective for the sake of explaining, because it's important not to confuse objective relation to time with outright fatalism... easy to do, bad mistake to make.

The nerds make a point of explaining that their perception of time is not like it is for mortals: we (mortals) experience a linear progression of temporal flow, and we cannot get to the experience five minutes from now with going through, at steady pace, the experiences of minutes one to four. That's subjective time flow.

Objective time, describes a relation where the entity is equally able to view and experience all time. They re never specifically at any given point of time, and they are never not so; our language struggles to describe it. Pete didn't actively experience those thousand years imprisonment and then come back... that isn't what he did. He enjoys the benefits of objective time, however, so while he may have those thousand years, he doesn't have to engage with or actively experience them; he is whenever his active agency chooses to be, so he simply moved his active agency perspective to a time after h had served those years, and returned.

In this sense, there quite literally is no 'Past Dragon' or 'Future Dragon'... that's a subjective frame of reference and she doesn't get that... there's just Dragon, and whenever her personal agency chooses to be acting. I can't really address the rest of your post, I'm sorry, because it continues to fundamentally miss this distinction... I will note, however that they can get caught up in a moment, if they want to, because that's the joy of experiencing things. more importantly, where specific mortals are concerned, the whole point of the issue, in many cases is that of the agency of said mortals, and the fact that their own choices aren't fatalistically determined things.

One of those important decisions was the ending of the game, and the only way we can properly ground that in a frame of reference that makes sense is in relation to the mortal players' personal timelines. The result was that both of them had to pay the forfeit, and the most important part of that forfeit was that being incarnated into a mortal life actively removed their temporal objectivity for the duration. If it hadn't done so, then they both would have pinged back again a second late, just like in the court room.

Without temporal objectivity, they both go from being able to exert their personal agency anywhere and anywhen, to not being able to do so at all; they are imprisoned in those mortal shells, as it were, and their agency is locked there too. As objective beings they had no 'past self', in relation to any objective timeline; forcing them into sudden temporal subjectivity doesn't grant them tangibly existent past selves, either. As long as Dragon has her personal agency tied to a mortal life, and her personal timeline is undergoing that very subjectively flowing space of years, then there literally can be no dragon in the past, or the future, or at ANY time, ANYWHERE, save the mortal incarnation of Dragon herself, now fully isolated. That fully isolated Dragon is somewhere circa HP present day, and cannot project any form of agency outside herself any more than Peanut can.

Post by **Obbl** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:57 am

Right, but from our perspective, in the "past", Dragon did exert her influence and did interact with our universe. From our perspective these events have already taken place. Satau has already beaten up the sabercat, and whatever is to come next in-comic has also already happened. That's our perspective. The perspective of the Celestials cannot be properly expressed, but both perspectives must be consistent and "correct". If these events have already taken place (from our perspective) in a time that Dragon "was" (from our perspective), yet Dragon cannot show up simply because they are also "new events" (from our linear perspective), that seems inconsistent to me. It gives a weird "special-ness" to our particular perspective of time, which contradicts the subjective time that Dragon experiences.
I do thank you for the description of subjective time though. I've had a nebulous understanding of it that I could not have put into words, but it is much clearer now. It's like the "fields" in quantum mechanics. They permeate everywhere and from it particles can be exited "into existence" (so to speak).

Edit: Clarified my point

Buster · Post by **Buster** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:01 am

Where did i put that head-desk gif...

Post by **Obbl** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:04 am

From my perspective, Buster, I'm the one who needs the headdesk gif

If I'm misunderstanding something, then address it. Don't be snarky

Saturn381 · Post by **Saturn381** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:14 am

Or we could just wait and see if they might meet Dragon or not.

I do believe however that once this arc is over, things in the Housepets universe might change.

Buster · Post by **Buster** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:47 am

Okay, here's the simple version, these events are not necessarily part of the moments in time undefeated dragon took part in, And if it's not it never will be because her defeat means there can be no new moments. And don't start bringing up perspectives again, because what is and is not bound by causality from an outside perspective, is irrelevant when the entity in question is not constrained to them.

for all intents and purposes, she doesn't exist during the moments she's not present, because her interaction with time does not follow a fixed linear progression! as a result, these events taking place before her defeat or not makes no difference.

Time for us is continuous, and goes in only one direction, time for her is unconnected moments that she only experiences if she chooses to, in the order she choses to.

Post by **Obbl** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:58 am

Buster wrote:Okay, here's the simple version, these events are not necessarily part of the moments in time undefeated dragon took part in

And all I've been saying is that these events are not necessarily not part of the moments in time undefeated Dragon took part in. Why do you assume so strongly that I do not understand what you're talking about? It just sounds to me like, when you say that there can be no "new" moments for Dragon, that you are the one binding Dragon to a causality. To say that these are "new" moments for Dragon simply because they are new moments for our heroes is to bind Dragon to their line of causality (as far as I can tell). That's the whole issue I've been having with your argument. It sounds like a contradiction given your own logic. Yet you assume me to simply be incapable of understanding what you are saying. If what you say is not a contradiction, and is only seemingly a contradiction, then it can be explained. I've been successful in understanding many paradoxes in the past including relativity, quantum mechanics, and many paradoxes dealing with infinity (the infinite hotel paradox being my new favorite). Explain the paradox with the understanding that a paradox will sound like a contradiction to someone new to hearing it instead of with the attitude that I'm just a simpleton who will never understand.

Buster wrote:Time for us is continuous, and goes in only one direction, time for her is unconnected moments that she only experiences if she chooses to, in the order she choses to.

Especially given that the game has been over a time period which they have chosen to experience in a linear fashion, these events taking place in the past makes for a good argument that Dragon has chosen to experience these moments.

Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:16 am

Niara wrote:The nerds make a point of explaining that their perception of time is not like it is for mortals: we (mortals) experience a linear progression of temporal flow, and we cannot get to the experience five minutes from now with going through, at steady pace, the experiences of minutes one to four. That's subjective time flow.

Objective time, describes a relation where the entity is equally able to view and experience all time. They re never specifically at any given point of time, and they are never not so; our language struggles to describe it. Pete didn't actively experience those thousand years imprisonment and then come back... that isn't what he did. He enjoys the benefits of objective time, however, so while he may have those thousand years, he doesn't have to engage with or actively experience them; he is whenever his active agency chooses to be, so he simply moved his active agency perspective to a time after h had served those years, and returned.

first, and least importand cause I know what you meant, you mixed up your definitions. Pete likes subjective time because that's what he experiences. plus the dictionary definition of objective time is "time that is an objectively determinable order in which durations are measured and an absolute present is indifferent"

secondly, subjective only implies that it is different for each person or being experiencing it. unless Rick has used misleading terms. they are free to live in any time they wish, but their personal timeline has to remain consistent. they can go to the past and give themselves something, but only if they remember getting it in their own past. additionally, what is the past to them can be the future for us, because these terms are based on perception, hence subjective. If Pete didn't even have to experience those hundred thousand years, why would a being that understands this even have this as a punishment? it would be totally pointless in ageless beings like the celestials. his body didn't deteriorate like a mortal's would have.

what you're thinking of is more close to the time perception of the aliens from Slaughterhouse 5, which was a 4th dimensional view of time. as far as we know the celestials are only 3 dimensional beings like us, though it's possible the aren't, we'd need Rick to be absolutely sure.

as Obbl has said, because all of these events have already happened in the earth's timeline, it has to still happen. King still exists because Pete turned Joel into him. all of these pets and satau still know who Dragon is, so she had to have interacted with them in this timeline. at most, there's an alternate timeline where that didn't happen, but because Satau is here that isn't the one we're viewing unless the time spell jumped timelines too.

let me know if I'm misunderstanding any part of your argument.

because this argument is based on differing definitions which, without confirmation from Rick himself as to what he meant, are unlikely to change, it's best to be dropped now that everyone has stated their definitions clearly.
perhaps take it to PM if both parties are alright with it.

Post by **Dissension** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:21 am

Let's be sure to treat one another with respect and civility, please.

Saturn381 wrote:I do believe however that once this arc is over, things in the Housepets universe might change.

Would you care to go into greater detail?

Saturn381 · Post by **Saturn381** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:51 am

Dissension wrote:
Saturn381 wrote:I do believe however that once this arc is over, things in the Housepets universe might change.
Would you care to go into greater detail?

Well you know how if you do something in the past, it could change the present and the future? Well If everything in the Housepets universe from the first arc to today happened because of Pete and Dragon's game, and if the timeline the group is in right now is before Dragon put Satau in the present, and if they succeed, then I expect some changes in the Housepets universe. By this I mean you would either have big changes like certain characters and arcs retconned out of the comic, or minor changes like having characters getting different occupations (like Fido no longer being a K-9 officer) or characters acting differently than what they used to (like having Bino acting nicer).

GameCobra · Post by **GameCobra** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:17 am

I expect someone doing something in the past that altered time already.

Peanut's camera for example. But something tells me Max won't resist the chance to doodle something before leaving. =P

"Maxwell was here. Cats rule and Dogs drool"

RockstarRaccoon · Post by **RockstarRaccoon** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:31 am

...Grape, what are you trying to do to Max? Uhhh....

Douglas Collier · Post by **Douglas Collier** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:09 am

So, if Dragon could experience all times simultaneously, why would she need to send Satau to locate the temple? Couldn't she just have watched it being transported to the Milton Estate? And also, why would she have been surprised at learning that she and Pete lost the game?

I think subjective time, at least in the case of the game, might be linear (no weird time junk). Perhaps in Heaven it can be simultaneous, but what would be the point in playing a game if you knew exactly what was going to happen - knowing that both parties were going to lose?

Niara · Post by **Niara** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:18 am

Heya! So, if the powers that be decide that this should be dropped, then of course that's fine, but I would like to be clear; I'm not really counting anything that's being discussed here between any of us as argumentative or ill-tempered in nay way, and since the arc is kinda of about time travel, it doesn't seem too off topic either... is there a reason we can't discuss it?

Edit: I tried to put this discussion response in spoiler tags, to collapse it away for those who weren't interested in reading it, but it seems your spoilers don't work the same way I'm used to. I'm sorry. Is there a way that I can hide the body of this discussion away by default for those not interested, but still click and readable for those who are?

In lieu of being able to hide it, what follows is a moderately lengthy discussion of time, perception and perspective as it relates to the comic's current situation. I have a more 'this specific strip' comment at the bottom, so those not interested in the philosophics can feel free to skip right down ^.^

RandomGeekNamedBrent wrote: first, and least import and cause I know what you meant, you mixed up your definitions.

I'm afraid not. Realistically, Rick is kinda the one who got the terms wrong, but regardless: we mortals experience time subjectively. That's just a fact of our perception, at least in most western views of time: One minute follows the next, in a linear progression. Exactly how fast or slow they seem to any individual differs by person, and one can never know exactly how another experiences the same block of time... it's subjective to the individual. The term originates in the study of how different people experience the linear progression of time differently, and carries within it the ground-roots assumption of that linear experience.

An objective experience of time, if it is placed counter to that already established term, then, is the description of a being that does not experience time as a progression at all, but rather, has an objective and at least somewhat external relationship with temporal measures, in a way that they need not necessarily be involved with. If we take your definition, that's exactly what it is saying: Someone who is experiencing time Objectively, takes the normal progression as a whole, and for them there is no absolute 'present'.

When you dip into personal timelines, relative to an overall objective time progression, you begin to tangle with some highly contentious philosophical debates, and there is no answer that anyone can say is absolutely 'right'... trust me I've studied conceptions of time at uni for several years ^.^ Western conceptions of time aren't even the most interesting ones!

Anyhow... The punishment for Pete, in Bahamut's court was meaningless. It was a slap on the wrist. It was a block of years that he was imprisoned for that he'll never get back, but that's without any meaning for an immortal with endless years, especially when, with their personal experience of time, his sense of personal agency never needs to actually experience them at all.

Can't comment on your reference to... game? movie? I don't know; I'm just dealing with the principles as they exist in contemporary philosophy. What I do know is that the vast majority of movies and games that deal with anything related to temporal issues always end up making it painfully obvious that they've never studied time... so it's probably not a good idea to base a stance on a view you've seen expressed in a movie, game or tv series.

Now... the meat of the problem is that, yes... if you suddenly isolate an agent with an objective experience of time, into a purely subjective, non-objective experience, that would have some very major repercussions, no matter what conception of time you happen to follow... repercussions so great that realistically, the comic cannot deal with that; for sanity and simplicity, it must continue as though all of the actions that Dragon and Pete took on their personal timeline, before being isolated, remain untouched. In reality, this is not a reliable assumption, and most scholars of the field agree that that does not appear to be a tenable stance to hold.

We can get out of that problem, however, at least part way (and this seems possibly the way the Rick has gone), by supposing that a part of their playing the game demanded a restriction of agency to a linear progression from the beginning temporal moment to the conclusion. They could act with agency any where and at any point, but once the canvas was brushed, they could only act 'forward' of that point, in relation to the mortal perspective. Kitsune did warn them against time shenanigans, right?

That partially, though not entirely, escapes the issue of temporal paradox... however, I do understand what Obbl is getting at, and it's a valid issue: Even our external reader perspective only has some of the picture, and we literally do not know what Dragon's personal timeline looks like in relation to the objective whole. We don't know, and we likely won't ever. the point they are making, as a result is that we don't know that anything seen isn't something that, in Dragon's personal timeline, happened for her long before the game ended. Her personal timeline is an objective relation to what we experience as an orderly flow, and so without seeing everything from her own eyes, we'll never know all of it.

Part of the problem is that even using something like 'personal timeline', is still incorrect for a being like this, and it's ultimately misleading... she doesn't have a personal timeline, at least not in the same sense that you might describe a time-traveler as having one... and that's where we derail; she's not a time traveler with power, she's a temporally objective external agent with no true past, present or future (at least not within our perceptions of time and reality); anchoring her to an isolated definite quite literally removes her from every other point in existence, for as long as it endures... when it ends, and she regains her objectivity, it will be as though it never happened, and thus the paradox is avoided part way, but as long as she is anchored and incarnated on her newly fixed personal timeline, she does not and cannot exist anywhere or anywhen else, at all... and that should have disastrously, if temporary, impacting effects on many, many things.

One thing I can offer, however, is that IF a fully objective Dragon is present or reachable at this point in any way that is tangible, then she must certainly be outside of the game's bounds in some way, because we can only assume that the Dragon we saw at the end of the game had no knowledge of these events as they are occurring now for our house pets... if she HAD, she would have acted differently, and most certainly wouldn't have made some of the mistakes which cost her the game. Unless of course, this theoretical Dragon is also of the opinion that the life incarnation was a good thing for both her and Pete, in the end, and so deliberately does not permit and post-game knowledge to affect her mid-game actions.

Discussion of time and perception ends here

I'm sure Grape won't break Max; he's beefed up, remember?

I'm secretly hoping that this whole outing will actually be a chance for improving the relationships between Max and Sabrina, and between Grape and Tarrot, both of which could benefit from some help. Peanut is mediator.

Post by **D-Rock** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:54 am

All of this "subjective vs. objective" stuff makes me feel like Dark Helmet during the instant cassette scene in Spaceballs. But it is really interesting, nonetheless. This is one of the many moments where we have to wait and see which route Rick takes.

Also, about Dragon and Pete being inconsistent in regards to omniscience, remember, they're described as demi-gods, which are obviously not as powerful as most interpretations as full gods. Maybe when it comes to the future, they only know the basic path, like getting a summary from a TV guide. So far, only Bahamut has been described as infinite, so maybe the others are significantly less powerful.

dryideabat · Post by **dryideabat** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:30 pm

Hmm, I try not to think too much about the time paradox and subjective/objective time ordeal, for it hurts my brains... though for some reason the subjective time bit kind of makes me think of Gandalph's experience in the 2nd Lord of the Rings movie: how after fighting the Belroc, each moment was a life age of the earth.
Instead, I wonder now what Max's ear tastes like.

Welsh Halfwit · Post by **Welsh Halfwit** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:53 pm

dryideabat wrote:Instead, I wonder now what Max's ear tastes like.

It is an ear of Max deliciousness.

Post by **Sleet** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:55 pm

It has to taste pretty good. Otherwise why would one of them have been bitten already? :O

Post by **Obbl** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:02 pm

Niara wrote:One thing I can offer, however, is that IF a fully objective Dragon is present or reachable at this point in any way that is tangible, then she must certainly be outside of the game's bounds in some way, because we can only assume that the Dragon we saw at the end of the game had no knowledge of these events as they are occurring now for our house pets... if she HAD, she would have acted differently, and most certainly wouldn't have made some of the mistakes which cost her the game.

Are you forgetting the lamp that Kitsune gave the mortals which blinds Dragon and Pete to the presence of those within its sphere of influence? Though I guess Satau could still tell her what happened as best he knows, so we'll see how that plays out I guess.

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But if Grape is going to bit Max's ear, she needs to do it on the bottom! This whole cross-ways "balancing" is going to mess with my head.

GameCobra · Post by **GameCobra** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:26 pm

Or Rick's. :3

"Great, one of my characters decided to bite the other ear from the other side in the heat of a moment. Thanks, Grape."

I bet gnawing on Max's ear though must feel nice for Grape. He must have kept it in good care after the other one went bad on him. X3

I'm just wondering if this will be a gag for Max now - the projection of Grape's fangirlism. Both good and bad =P

Amazee Dayzee · Post by **Amazee Dayzee** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:52 pm

Is the statue of limitations on asking about how his other ear got bitten off over?