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2014/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff 
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Post Re: 2013/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff
RedDagger wrote:
Just casually holding a billiard cue...for...emphasis? Should probably get it out of Grape's face though, it's rude to point =P

It's safer pointing it at her than letting her take it...

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:07 pm
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Post Re: 2013/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff
Thanks Grape, the whole "She feels the ghost of her victim and hangs herself" bit was kinda weak...

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:19 pm
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Post Re: 2013/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff
Obbl wrote:
Yeah, not buying it. If Grape were to have tossed him in when he was incapable of swimming, I doubt you'd be singing quite the same tune.


Irrelevant, since she didn't actually do that. It's not fair to judge people based on actions they didn't do, and didn't even consider doing — I'd definitely think she was the worst of the lot if she had grabbed a machine gun and blown away several hundreds of people in downtown London, too, but since she didn't do that, it's irrelevant.

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And to me it is the same mostly because he was still a child and didn't know any better. I agree that sometimes you have to let someone do the stupid thing they want to do before they will realize it's a stupid thing to do, and sometimes that can be detrimental to their life. But Grape had this idea for a while (premeditated) and with full knowledge that the child would die (murder). In fact, she was worried that by some miracle the child would survive and be able to tell the adults who it was that had sanctioned his perilous swim (full knowledge of consequences). So there's not much anyone could do to convince me otherwise.


Still not considering the premeditation enough to make her as culpable as the other late-diers. Yeah, she's guilty, and I've said so already, but letting a child kill itself by doing what it wanted to do, no matter how you dress it up, does not compare to killing people who want to live and are doing nothing to harm themselves — as the driver guy did, and the detective, and presumably Lombard (Peanut's character). (I could have sworn there was a bit where he gives some details of his "crime", but I can't find it now. Everything I can find is so vague that I can't say for sure whether his guilt is really serious or whether his manner just makes him seem more horrible.)

(In fact, the argument that you're making, that people who don't feel guilt can be disposed of early, is actually against keeping Lombard around so long. A lot of his characterization, in the book, is performed by making him so casual about having committed crimes outside of "civilization" — which is put in terms very, very similar to those employed by the driver guy. Lombard never, as far as I can recall, shows any remorse for killing anyone.)


Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:38 pm
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Post Re: 2013/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff
The Vicar wrote:
Obbl wrote:
Yeah, not buying it. If Grape were to have tossed him in when he was incapable of swimming, I doubt you'd be singing quite the same tune.


Irrelevant, since she didn't actually do that. It's not fair to judge people based on actions they didn't do, and didn't even consider doing — I'd definitely think she was the worst of the lot if she had grabbed a machine gun and blown away several hundreds of people in downtown London, too, but since she didn't do that, it's irrelevant.

The point I was trying to make is that she basically did do this just via proxy. If that's not the way you view the world, I really will never be able to understand you. But please recognize that this is the reason I have no problem with the line up, and that it's a very valid reason to me and apparently Agatha Christie and apparently the vast majority of people when the book came out (according to your initial statements).

The Vicar wrote:
Still not considering the premeditation enough to make her as culpable as the other late-diers. Yeah, she's guilty, and I've said so already, but letting a child kill itself by doing what it wanted to do, no matter how you dress it up, does not compare to killing people who want to live and are doing nothing to harm themselves — as the driver guy did, and the detective, and presumably Lombard (Peanut's character). (I could have sworn there was a bit where he gives some details of his "crime", but I can't find it now. Everything I can find is so vague that I can't say for sure whether his guilt is really serious or whether his manner just makes him seem more horrible.)

(In fact, the argument that you're making, that people who don't feel guilt can be disposed of early, is actually against keeping Lombard around so long. A lot of his characterization, in the book, is performed by making him so casual about having committed crimes outside of "civilization" — which is put in terms very, very similar to those employed by the driver guy. Lombard never, as far as I can recall, shows any remorse for killing anyone.)


The amoral argument is actually made by the judge as his reason for killing Max first. I agree that Lombard also feels no remorse for his actions, but I think there were other motives for keeping him around (such as the gun he brought) and that his crime seems to be more weighty than Max's (or at least we both seem to think so). I mean he left 21 natives to starve to death. Yeah. (I don't remember where the details get mentioned, but basically he takes all the supplies and leaves them to die. From his perspective the situation necessitated it for his own survival, but I can't remember exactly why. Aside from his belief in his superiority to the natives.)

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:21 pm
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Post Re: 2013/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff
WHY are you guys carrying this conversation in spoiler form when it doesn't spoil anything?

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:58 pm
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Post Re: 2013/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff
I assume it spoils the details within the actual book.

I do believe the amoral drunk driver should have gone higher on the list.

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:03 pm
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Post Re: 2013/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff
Guys? I think you are all forgetting something here.... this is the mind of the Judge. Throughout the entire novel, throughout the entire confession, we are shown light on the thoughts of this man, his psychological self as a criminal mind. This man had his own morals and views, which are shown throughout the story. By his logic, every death in sequence makes sense. It may be flawed logic, but this story, at its base, is a story of a mind, a thought, and the carrying out of said thought.

As for the girl being last, remember how he heard about it. The judge had almost given up looking for a criminal whose deeds trounced the others. He was on a ship when he overheard the man she had loved tell her tale, how he knew what she had done, and decided to use her. Her crime was worse BECAUSE it involved a child, as well as other reasons. He heard her story through the brother of the deceased and her love interest. Quite a slanted tale it must have been!


All of Christie's stories involved the psychological aspect as the main root of deductive reasoning and detective work. She was a genius at that sort of thing.

As for the ability of the old judge to perform all of the deeds, it is actually common in many mysteries to have hidden strength of a sort. I think Christie was probably just thinking a bad heart or something, where it was a ticking time bomb. Then again, I cannot remember what he was dying from, so I am most likely wrong.

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:30 pm
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Post Re: 2013/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff
copper wrote:
Then again, I cannot remember what he was dying from, so I am most likely wrong.

To quote Saturday Breakfast Cereal, at least he didn't hear anything negative when he went to the doctor!

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:39 am
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Post Re: 2013/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff
Welsh Halfwit wrote:
WHY are you guys carrying this conversation in spoiler form when it doesn't spoil anything?

because we're spoiled!*brick'd*

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Post Re: 2013/02/24 - The Ol' Push-'Em-Off-A-Cliff
copper wrote:
Guys? I think you are all forgetting something here.... this is the mind of the Judge. Throughout the entire novel, throughout the entire confession, we are shown light on the thoughts of this man, his psychological self as a criminal mind. This man had his own morals and views, which are shown throughout the story. By his logic, every death in sequence makes sense. It may be flawed logic, but this story, at its base, is a story of a mind, a thought, and the carrying out of said thought.


And as I said earlier: nobody in the real world seems to have raised any objection to it, which is why we're arguing about it.

Quote:
Then again, I cannot remember what he was dying from, so I am most likely wrong.


As I said, again, the novel doesn't say. The judge just says he has been operated on and got the doctors to admit that he's going to die soon. (He's very contemptuous of them for not wanting to put it in so many words. In a way I can understand that, having had to go through a very difficult situation with a relative who was in a coma on life support, where the doctors were absolutely unwilling even to tell us what the chances of her even coming out of the coma ever again were in statistical terms, which was just plain evil in that particular context, but he suggests that their dislike of coming out and telling him that he's doomed is feeble-mindedness, which it wasn't even in the case I went through. Doctors don't like giving bad news, and that's a perfectly understandable, human reaction.)

Welsh Halfwit wrote:
WHY are you guys carrying this conversation in spoiler form when it doesn't spoil anything?


Because we're discussing detail which hasn't been covered in the comic, so if you want to read the book and get the original experience, we don't want to spoil that for you.

But if you insist that spoilered text should really be critical details, then here:

"Rosebud" is the name of the sled. Bruce Willis' character was killed when he was shot by Vincent Grey, and he's a ghost for the rest of the movie. Smike is really Ralph Nichleby's long-lost son, who was sent to Squeers' school by a disgruntled servant seeking revenge, who was then arrested and sent abroad. The narrator is schizophrenic and Tyler Durden is actually just a dissociated personality, so they're really just one person. Kaiser Soze is actually Roger Kint. Doctor Sheppard killed Roger Ackroyd before leaving the house in the first place, and the phone call is a fake. The Second Foundation is actually on Trantor, which is conceptually "the other end" of the galaxy from a planet in exile. Dumbledore dies, and he was grooming Harry as a kind of biological weapon against Voldemort all along. The Boss' secretary already knew where the Rat was hiding — but he doesn't realize that the Rat committed suicide to destroy the Sheep. Faye Valentine was actually an upper-class high school student who was caught up in the gate disaster.

There, happy now? :D


Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:43 am
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