Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

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Foxstar
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Foxstar »

I could have -swore- that it's been pretty clear from the start that free will overrides -all-. Tarot went to Peanut because she was willing to be led, but she fell in love with Peanut on her own.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by rickgriffin »

I can say it right now: They are only interested in exercising their power in the HP world within the limits of the game they are playing. The game's rules are not destructive on the whole; it's intention is in part to uplift mortals and give immortals an understanding of them--some of the more salient points our given gamers have not understood. But they will not go all armageddon on the world just because they get burned in the game.

Their capacity to "prevent war" often would consist of mass violations of free will, which as I have said is against celestial law, and against free agency, which is against game rules, so they cannot do either.

Despite all I've said I'm an optimist, not a cynic. The end is not going to consist of the characters ruminescing on the purposeless of reality.
I'm sure the cold hand of science will be able to overcome his magical powers
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Liam »

What about landgrabs? Couldn't they've just magicked some gigatons of gold, diamonds or coal into existence and prevented 50% or more of all armed conflicts?

Or ended all religious strife by sending someone to Earth who proclaims "Hey, look guys, stop that nonsense. You're all, I repeat, all wrong anyway. Now let me tell you how the afterlife and everything else metaphysical really works. I'm in middle management there, after all."

You see the problems that their mere existence poses?

The same old problems all excessively overpowered characters pose. Why don't the Q transform everybody else into immortal energy beings free of material needs? Oh yeah, well, because.

How can you possibly relate to that kind of character?

I never was a fiction nerd that blurred reality and fiction, I never tried to live through fictional characters. I found entertainment in the adventures of homicidal psychopaths not because of their deeds, but because of how well their adventures were told. Because these adventures had resonance.

EOC's decrease resonance in a setting like yours. They're like oversized, crudely manufactured cogs in a machine. They chafe with their neighbors and introduce failure modes in the machine.

Restrictions of reality, limits of our ability define our fictional characters (and, well, us too). EOC's make a mockery of all their accomplishments, their befriendings, their fights, their lives.

Looking over my previous posts, my arguments aren't exactly cogent. Seems I'm a bit thick today, so I won't bug you any further.

Your a good writer, you always managed to deliver quality material and I'm sure you will continue to do so. Just felt I could help this process with my bla.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by GameCobra »

Liam wrote:The same old problems all excessively overpowered characters pose. Why don't the Q transform everybody else into immortal energy beings free of material needs? Oh yeah, well, because.
If you had to wonder what a god would do every move or if a earthquake would happen every second, you're just letting the paranoia build =P

Worrying what a god would do is like worrying when the world is going to end, but in works of fiction, usually %99 of the time the artist can't do all of that and you go with the artist's intent in this case and see where he rolls with it. The real question is, is it being used to a point everyone can approve on?

My answer currently is yes!
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by EvanAierkan »

Rants like these are always entertaining. Shame though my only complaints aren't really about this matter, maybe make own thread for it someday. Or maybe not

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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by angelusbr »

EvanAierkan wrote:
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Can I have some?
But I'm okay with this development as long nobody is being mind controlled. If Peanut does care about Tarot (and not being mind controlled to do so), then okay. Sure Peanut will feel horrible after this, but this might cause some interesting reactions.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by IceKitsune »

I really wonder since this revelation caused this much of a reactions from the fans, if Rick is now worried about any other revelations this arc has in store for us.
angelusbr wrote: But I'm okay with this development as long nobody is being mind controlled. If Peanut does care about Tarot (and not being mind controlled to do so), then okay. Sure Peanut will feel horrible after this, but this might cause some interesting reactions.
As I said before in fiction and real life this kind of stuff never really works out well from what I've seen. I suspect one of them to take this revelation badly.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by RootsofOrigin »

Holy crap everyone, I'm not even gone for a day and you all manage to fill up two whole pages worth of fervor. I read through it all and it has left me drained.
All I can say is that nothing has changed, we've only learned more. And what we've learned should not impact our opinions of the couples. The couples that are, are together because they chose to be, regardless of the initial purpose or of their current intentions. Certainly none of them are in their relationships with any malicious, ulterior motives.
The Big ol' Bunch a' Nerds have been playing matchmaker, but that should not be affected by the fact that they are of a higher power, they can only go as far as any other mortal playing that role thanks to that stupid free will.
So sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride, this arc ain't done yet.
And Rick...
rickgriffin wrote:The end is not going to consist of the characters ruminescing on the purposeless of reality.
Is that a spoiler? :lol:
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by rickgriffin »

Liam wrote:What about landgrabs? Couldn't they've just magicked some gigatons of gold, diamonds or coal into existence and prevented 50% or more of all armed conflicts?

Or ended all religious strife by sending someone to Earth who proclaims "Hey, look guys, stop that nonsense. You're all, I repeat, all wrong anyway. Now let me tell you how the afterlife and everything else metaphysical really works. I'm in middle management there, after all."

You see the problems that their mere existence poses?

The same old problems all excessively overpowered characters pose. Why don't the Q transform everybody else into immortal energy beings free of material needs? Oh yeah, well, because.

How can you possibly relate to that kind of character?

I never was a fiction nerd that blurred reality and fiction, I never tried to live through fictional characters. I found entertainment in the adventures of homicidal psychopaths not because of their deeds, but because of how well their adventures were told. Because these adventures had resonance.

EOC's decrease resonance in a setting like yours. They're like oversized, crudely manufactured cogs in a machine. They chafe with their neighbors and introduce failure modes in the machine.

Restrictions of reality, limits of our ability define our fictional characters (and, well, us too). EOC's make a mockery of all their accomplishments, their befriendings, their fights, their lives.

Looking over my previous posts, my arguments aren't exactly cogent. Seems I'm a bit thick today, so I won't bug you any further.

Your a good writer, you always managed to deliver quality material and I'm sure you will continue to do so. Just felt I could help this process with my bla.
Well that is why it gets into "celestials don't care about mortals" which is only half the story. They DO care about mortals, which is why there is a heaven. They just don't care about the exact same things mortals do.

Making gigatons of resources, well maybe they do that on other worlds. What does that world look like? Are people content just because they have stuff? Does that avert the conflict inherent in mortal life, or just delay it?

Would it be better if I made it an absolute law that mortal conflict cannot be overcome? Or how about the only reason these "lesser celestials" can approach a world at all is through this mechanism of a game?
I'm sure the cold hand of science will be able to overcome his magical powers
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Liam »

rickgriffin wrote:Would it be better if I made it an absolute law that mortal conflict cannot be overcome? Or how about the only reason these "lesser celestials" can approach a world at all is through this mechanism of a game?
Sounds good.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by EvanAierkan »

angelusbr wrote: Can I have some?
But I'm okay with this development as long nobody is being mind controlled. If Peanut does care about Tarot (and not being mind controlled to do so), then okay. Sure Peanut will feel horrible after this, but this might cause some interesting reactions.
/passing the popcorns
Yeah definitely interesting reactions. I say bring it on, some good ol' drama never hurts.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by PhoenixAsper »

rickgriffin wrote:Well that is why it gets into "celestials don't care about mortals" which is only half the story. They DO care about mortals, which is why there is a heaven. They just don't care about the exact same things mortals do.
Well, I HOPE they care about love and friendship at the very LEAST, that is my main concern for at least one point here. Or at least care enough not to interfere that drastically.

Also, Rick, I'm sorry. I think you're awesome, as a writer and an artist, and probably a person too, but I just don't UNDERSTAND you. I don't know what kind of misery or joy to expect or not expect from this. Maybe I'm echoing the sentiments of a few others, too.
EvanAierkan wrote:I say bring it on, some good ol' drama never hurts.
Speak for yourself, man.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by rickgriffin »

Liam wrote:Sounds good.
I'm not saying I will do that exact thing but I'll keep it in mind.
I'm sure the cold hand of science will be able to overcome his magical powers
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Liam »

rickgriffin wrote:I'll keep it in mind.
That's what I hoped for. :3
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Foxstar »

PhoenixAsper wrote:Also, Rick, I'm sorry. I think you're awesome, as a writer and an artist, and probably a person too, but I just don't UNDERSTAND you. I don't know what kind of misery or joy to expect or not expect from this. Maybe I'm echoing the sentiments of a few others, too.
You are way too invested in this. Like seriously. It's a funny animal comic with some serious bits for goodness sake. Repeat to yourself. "It's just a cartoon, you should really just relax."
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Dissension »

Imagine you work on a project for several years. You create an elaborate cosmology, back story, intricate relationships and plot points, and the project takes off. People like what you do. To progress the story, you must reveal some of the inner workings of the universe. You do so and suddenly, some of your most vocal supporters become ardent critics. They accuse you of making things up on the fly or say the background, which has not changed since the project's onset, ruins the story for them. They argue over minute details and denounce every plot point. The opinionated ones hold to their speculation even when you tell them it is incorrect. They do all this without giving you a chance to finish the exposition.

Guys, this is a comic. That it is a good comic is attested to by your dedication. We understand you are emotionally invested in it. Please, though, let Rick tell the story he wants to tell. It has got to be stressful when you post a comic and your fan base explodes before they can even see for sure where things are going.

That being the case, stop it.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by KJOokami »

I'm sorry, but reading through the last couple pages that cropped up from conversations about this arc was absolutely painful. Do you guys even realize the things you're saying here? You're making desperate, emotional pleas to Rick because he had the audacity to pull a zinger like "Hey, the celestials don't particularly give a crap about mortals." (is that even a surprise?) in his own dang webcomic?

There is no possible way that this level of emotional attachment to a webcomic is at all healthy. Go take a breather, guys. Seriously.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by RandomGeekNamedBrent »

Yeah. I couldn't even read all of what was said, because between the time I went to sleep and the time I got back on, there were 2 whole pages of that.
Calm down and let Rick finish telling his story. If you don't like it, say you don't like it, but don't say it's bad. If Rick takes it a direction that you don't want it to go, then you have the right to stop reading. But most of you love the comic, so you should trust Rick to not make it completely suck and keep reading and waiting for him to explain things. You can always write a fan fic where the story goes the way you want it to.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Sinder »

no new comic for monday

rick has to redraw the whole thing so it rains puppies and kittens while pete frolics in the cotton candy fields and cerberus swims in gumdrop lake

that's what heaven is like, right
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by PhoenixAsper »

<snrk>

Raining puppies and kittens sound cruel and unusual to the puppies and kittens. :lol: :roll:
Foxstar wrote:You are way too invested in this. Like seriously. It's a funny animal comic with some serious bits for goodness sake. Repeat to yourself. "It's just a cartoon, you should really just relax."
<sigh> What do you want me say? :oops: You already know more than most people here about me.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by valerio »

WUT?
And no fun for Dragon?
Oh, the celestiality!!
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by JeffCvt »

PhoenixAsper wrote:Raining puppies and kittens sound cruel and unusual to the puppies and kittens. :lol: :roll:
But if it's in cotton candy fields, then they will have a soft landing into sugary goodness.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by GameCobra »

Heaven is where all the pets go to get married and have their puppies and kittens.

Kitsune bet that if Pete and Dragon both lose, they do the honor of giving the pets their vows. Bells and all!
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Ratros »

Sinder wrote:no new comic for monday

rick has to redraw the whole thing so it rains puppies and kittens while pete frolics in the cotton candy fields and cerberus swims in gumdrop lake

that's what heaven is like, right
I'm sorry, but Pete does NOT frolic, he swaggers.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by justacritic »

Ratros wrote:
Sinder wrote:no new comic for monday

rick has to redraw the whole thing so it rains puppies and kittens while pete frolics in the cotton candy fields and cerberus swims in gumdrop lake

that's what heaven is like, right
I'm sorry, but Pete does NOT frolic, he swaggers.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by DanTwelve3 »

So many revelations in just a few strips, this is pretty exciting. Rick, I am enjoying this a lot as I'm sure many of us are. I never know quite what to expect from this comic. People have their complaints and it shows they care, which is good, but it's your comic. You are DOG in this universe. The nerds are your little playthings 8-) .
Sinder wrote:sit back, let the artist art, and enjoy the ride
Yes.

I must say that this is definitely a wall of text, but it really seems to be working well. With the massive amounts of double strips we're still getting plenty of comic with the novel.

Monday, come here!
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Liam »

Wow, what the inferno went here wrong?
Dissension wrote:You do so and suddenly, some of your most vocal supporters become ardent critics. They accuse you of making things up on the fly or say the background, which has not changed since the project's onset, ruins the story for them. They argue over minute details and denounce every plot point. The opinionated ones hold to their speculation even when you tell them it is incorrect.
Somehow I can't remember things went down like this. <_<

Diss, saying "I like this new char/twist/whatever <3 " is criticism just as "I see a problem with [x]", the former's just positive and the latter's negative criticism.

I don't remember Valerio or me claiming Rick made all this up as he went along.

Do you know for sure the background didn't evolve over time in Rick's mind due to the creative process? Besides, the salient points of the background were neither the focus nor even known back then, so you can't say the state of beings is static and we get worked up over nothing because nothing changed.

And considering Rick gives it some thought how can the examination, not speculation, have been incorrect?
KJOokami wrote:There is no possible way that this level of emotional attachment to a webcomic is at all healthy. Go take a breather, guys. Seriously.
Sorry to say that, but you have it backwards.

You guys need to take a chill pill.

I already stated I'm not living through Grape, Peanut or whoever. I'm not trying to impose my ideas on Rick.

That said, I am concerned about the comic. That's what it means to be a fan.

However, there are two (broad) categories of fans. Fanboys who distinguish themselves by being prone to go fandumb and the more collected ones. Fanboys have a big positivity bias and see their idol and his work as infallible. It's very hard for them to assume a normal, neutral position, point up faults and, most importantly, even see them.

I'm no jerk, I'm not saying you are fanboys. But right now you behave in a way reminiscent of fandumb.

I like the comic, so I want to help Rick with it to the best of my ability. This means speaking on problems I see in the comic.

I still think my points are objectively substantiated rather than petty, subjective trifles, so I stick to them. Hugboxes are of no use for anybody.

If you have a problem with that, I question your love of the comic.

Sorry for the hard words, but I found this a bit too much. I hope I could show you the others and me are no "traitors to the cause" to put it exaggeratedly and we can forget this witch-hunt-in-the-making episode. Alright, guys?
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by EvanAierkan »

DanTwelve3 wrote:I must say that this is definitely a wall of text
Yeah it's quite a lot of WORDSWORDSWORDS, but needed at this point. What with getting finally some explanation for the main storyline after four years.

EDIT: and even though I don't have problems with these new revelations and such, I do back up Liam's post what he wrote just before me. If someone has legit complaints about the comic, this is the very best place to discuss about it and you can't just dismiss it as " level of emotional attachment" or any other excuse (even though it might apply to some people).
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by 0404 »

Never tought Housepets! can be this much controversial, I tought HP! is just a comic full of joys and wonders.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Liam »

Dunno if that's a Rules Of The Internet, but if not it should be.

"You can make a controversy out of it. No exceptions."
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by PhoenixAsper »

There's one I haven't heard.

I also edited my previous post on cosmic matchmaking. I think I got it more accurate now.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by KJOokami »

@Liam: One person among half a dozen or more presenting their case in an objective, substantiated manner doesn't make the last few pages any less painful to read. Did you notice how I made my comment as generally applied as possible? It's because I wasn't specifically referring to you.

And, whether you're willing to admit it or not, there was very little criticism that happened which was actually as thought-out as yours was. Trying to turn the situation around by saying that everyone telling people to tone the criticism down to a more tolerable level are simply being "fandumb" is very much negating the purpose of presenting your criticism in an objective manner in the first place.

Case in point: you're getting overly defensive about a comment which didn't necessarily apply to you, which was never intended to apply to you.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Dissension »

There is to be no name-calling or other flame-baiting in this thread.

There is a difference between objectively stating one's positive or negative criticism and ramming it down the author's throat. If you say "I have a concern with X" and the author's reply is "trust me, I've been working on this and it'll be okay," the appropriate response is not to provide an essay on why you "have a concern with X," nor is it to keep repeating what your problem with X is in an attempt to wear down the author. At some point, a line is crossed between stating your concerns and hurting my friend. Trust me when I say Rick does not ignore what is said in this thread. If he sees a potential issue, he will work to resolve it and I think that is good and admirable. That being the case, I trust Rick to keep the comic from becoming what so many of you seem to feel it will.

The primary focus of this comic is... you know... comedy. It has dramatic parts, but the emphasis is generally on silliness and cute talking animals doing cute things and talking. That is not going to change. It may help some of us to keep that concept foremost in our mind when considering the more drama-focused arcs.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Liam »

KJOokami wrote:-snip-
Don't take this down the wrong pipe, but you leave me little choice in this matter. If one gets attacked one has to defend oneself.

You said it yourself, you talked in general terms, so you addressed all us dissenting voices. Why shouldn't I answer you then?

So did Diss as he basically told us to shut up...
Dissension wrote:That being the case, stop it.
...and made a bigger deal out of the issue by stating we "exploded".

Granted, the attacks in question were comparatively mild and I don't think anyone here acted out of malice, but I do think you can call it an attack if your contribution is called painful and audacious.
KJOokami wrote:I'm sorry, but reading through the last couple pages that cropped up from conversations about this arc was absolutely painful. Do you guys even realize the things you're saying here? You're making desperate, emotional pleas to Rick because he had the audacity to pull a zinger like "Hey, the celestials don't particularly give a crap about mortals." (is that even a surprise?) in his own dang webcomic?

There is no possible way that this level of emotional attachment to a webcomic is at all healthy. Go take a breather, guys. Seriously.
I found this and other stuff a bit too aggressive, for example.

And that's what I meant by "witch hunt". The reaction to us dissenters was more fiery than everything we said to begin with. How are we supposed to react in light of this? If there are efforts to silence us instead of being "told to tone down"?

As you can see, this whole back and forth has a very negative impact on the otherwise sociable atmosphere of our forum.

The affair has been settled, so please, can't we return to the status quo where disparaging talk was fully absent from the forum?
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by PhoenixAsper »

Dissension wrote:There is to be no name-calling or other flame-baiting in this thread.

There is a difference between objectively stating one's positive or negative criticism and ramming it down the author's throat. If you say "I have a concern with X" and the author's reply is "trust me, I've been working on this and it'll be okay," the appropriate response is not to provide an essay on why you "have a concern with X," nor is it to keep repeating what your problem with X is in an attempt to wear down the author. At some point, a line is crossed between stating your concerns and hurting my friend. Trust me when I say Rick does not ignore what is said in this thread. If he sees a potential issue, he will work to resolve it and I think that is good and admirable. That being the case, I trust Rick to keep the comic from becoming what so many of you seem to feel it will.

The primary focus of this comic is... you know... comedy. It has dramatic parts, but the emphasis is generally on silliness and cute talking animals doing cute things and talking. That is not going to change. It may help some of us to keep that concept foremost in our mind when considering the more drama-focused arcs.

Uhhhhhhhh............... :oops: :oops: :oops: .

Well, it's a trust problem. Sometimes people ( :oops: ) have a hard time trusting that things that happen to their favorite characters won't permanently alter their relationships or general attitudes in a bad way. Shows amazing (or else crazy) devotion to the character or story.

EDIT: There IS the fact that Rick has not YET done something that permanently made the comic suck in one aspect or another (Though it does make me glad I'm not a shipper. I could not have survived "n-ple Date" otherwise. :? ). There's been rough spots here and there, but since when have any of the REALLY bad ones lasted more than one arc? Even in this arc, far and away the most mind boggling of the bunch, he seems to have done his best to address everyone's concerns and say that things are going to be just fine. No one is going to die/get their heart broken permanently/be fed to a singing kangaroo. For some of us, the character or story is so important or personal that we have doubts as to whether that trend will be broken. After all, as far as emotional matters go, Rick has been playing this close to reality, so how are we to know whether or not he's going to do something that gets us in an uproar like this again on THAT matter?
Last edited by PhoenixAsper on Sun May 27, 2012 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Obbl
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Obbl »

Liam, from your perspective you are trying to help a webcomic artist stay out of territory that would be harmful to the comic. Thus negative criticism toward you is perceived as an attack. From Diss (and others') point of view, you are repeatedly posting a point that the author has already addressed and are thus becoming an attacker. Any negative criticism toward you is thus seen as trying to tone you down.

In other words: no one is specifically trying to attack you, nor (from an objective point of view) are they being any more harsh than you and the others were. They are trying to remind everyone that this is a webcomic that the dissenters are taking very seriously - which is okay - but (as Diss pointed out) there is a line over which criticism becomes bad.
Rick takes his work seriously too. He's doing what he thinks is best, and we haven't even seen where he's going with it yet. To get up in arms over the perceived direction is somewhat hard to defend, especially when Rick repeatedly states that he recognizes your concerns and not to worry because it isn't going there.
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Liam
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by Liam »

Obbl wrote:Liam, from your perspective you are trying to help a webcomic artist stay out of territory that would be harmful to the comic. Thus negative criticism toward you is perceived as an attack. From Diss (and others') point of view, you are repeatedly posting a point that the author has already addressed and are thus becoming an attacker. Any negative criticism toward you is thus seen as trying to tone you down.
I don't perceive negative criticism as an attack (at least I try to do so as best as I can :) ). I perceive statements that go overboard and are (passive-)aggressive as attacks. I daresay everybody does.

Rick presented a point, I did another till we reached a satisfiable conclusion. You know, a conservation. I don't see what's the deal with "the author already said something to you, so replying constitutes an attack".

May I suggest to switch to PMs? I don't think this thread is meant for this kind of disputes.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by IceKitsune »

You know I don't remember if anyone brought this up but the previous game that The Nerds played had to be played in a completely different universe. Since the duel started 5,000 years before the comic started he couldn't have had an avatar in Middle Ages because he was trapped in the temple until Zach released him.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by RandomGeekNamedBrent »

IceKitsune wrote:You know I don't remember if anyone brought this up but the previous game that The Nerds played had to be played in a completely different universe. Since the duel started 5,000 years before the comic started he couldn't have had an avatar in Middle Ages because he was trapped in the temple until Zach released him.
each game is played in a different universe.
Unless they are free from the constraints of time and started a new game that ran parallel to the one their past selves were playing.
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Re: Arc #55: The Trial in Heaven

Post by IceKitsune »

RandomGeekNamedBrent wrote:
IceKitsune wrote:You know I don't remember if anyone brought this up but the previous game that The Nerds played had to be played in a completely different universe. Since the duel started 5,000 years before the comic started he couldn't have had an avatar in Middle Ages because he was trapped in the temple until Zach released him.
each game is played in a different universe.
Unless they are free from the constraints of time and started a new game that ran parallel to the one their past selves were playing.
Well yes clearly they would all have to be played in a different universe. I was just pointing it out because I don't remember it been said anywhere that they were playing it in a different universe nor did anyone bring that up. Just wanted to see if anyone else noticed it or not.
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